Suz Chadwick [00:00:00]:

Welcome to the Brand Builders Lab Podcast. I'm your host, Suze Chadwick, certified business and mindset coach, author and speaker. Each week we'll be talking about simple but powerful business and mindset strategies that will help you build a lean, clean and profitable business so you can learn to get out of your own way and pay yourself more. Forget average. It's time to level up. Hello, lovely. Welcome back to the podcast. So great to have you here today. I have got a treat for you. I have brought one of my favorite biz friends onto the podcast. Kate jeffries McKibben. I never know which one to go with from Hello Funnels. Her and I love to catch up for coffees and talk tech. Funnels stats, business, sex in the City, Vampire Diaries, whatever it is, we love chatting about it. And so the last time we had a conversation, I just said to her, listen, you've got to come onto the podcast. It is just so good to be able to have these types of conversations as well. And I really enjoy bringing you Fireside chats where we talk about business, but we talk about other things as well, like how Kate's evolved in business and the different iterations of business she's been through and all the things along the way, which I think it's important for us to hear. Because sometimes I think that what I see right now is people stick with what they've got when it's totally fine for you to evolve and change things that you want to. And so this conversation, I think, really highlighted that. And so I hope that you enjoy it. If you've got any questions, then let us know. But otherwise, make sure you go check Kate out as well at hello, funnels. And without further ado, let's just dive into this week's episode. Kate. Welcome to the Brand Builders Lab podcast.

Kate McKibbin [00:02:01]:

Well, thank you so much for having me. My brain has not turned on yet this morning.

Suz Chadwick [00:02:06]:

Awesome. Who knows where this is going to go?

Kate McKibbin [00:02:10]:

This is a good start.

Suz Chadwick [00:02:12]:

It is a good start. So I have already shared that you and I are biz mates and we sometimes go out for coffees and croissants and all the rest of it and just have really and sometimes cocktails and have really good biz conversations. So the last time I saw you, I'm like, you have to come on the podcast and we have to talk about some of this stuff. So I am excited to have you on because I don't think I've had.

Kate McKibbin [00:02:35]:

You on before, which is crazy. No. Yeah, we've been hanging out for a couple of years, I think. So, yes.

Suz Chadwick [00:02:44]:

Who knows? It's all a blur over the last couple of years. But listen, for my audience who don't know, you give us your little spiel. What do you say?

Kate McKibbin [00:02:54]:

Basically, I'm terrible at the whole elevator pitch, but hello, funnels. This is my business, baby. Business number three point something or other, but basically I'm just a big nerd and I love geeking out on all of the digital marketing things, particularly digital marketing automation. I really got into that when I got pregnant with my son now, god, almost five years ago. And just seeing how you can just make things be more systemized and be a bit more hands free and just give a bit more just that layer of extra reliability into your online business, which is something that just makes it sort of easier to show up and be creative and all that good stuff. So I just love to nerd out behind the scenes, make all the robots talk to each other and that's my happy place.

Suz Chadwick [00:03:47]:

I know, it's so good. Like when we catch up to those, you're like, right, so these are all the things, these are the numbers, here's a spreadsheet. And I'm just like, oh my gosh, I am so much more big picture. I love the automation when it works. I think that's my issue is that sometimes we set things up and then I'm like, it's just not working. Why is it not working? And that's where I get stuck. But before we kind of talk about that, you've had such an interesting evolution to getting to where you are now. Like you said, this is like business, three point something. And so where did it all start?

Kate McKibbin [00:04:25]:

Well, I did the math the other day. I've been working for myself full time for 16 years.

Suz Chadwick [00:04:30]:

Wow.

Kate McKibbin [00:04:31]:

And I've always called it my business baby. I'm like, It's not a baby anymore, it's almost time to move out of the house. And I think I was one of those people who always thought they were going to work for themselves because my dad has his own business. So I just sort of always had that as a bit of a base to look at and I was just waiting for an idea. But I was working as a journalist in Sydney and that was my quote unquote dream job, was working at Fashion Magazine but the pay was horrendous. I think you'd earn more at McDonald's and the Hour.

Suz Chadwick [00:05:10]:

Do you remember what it was? Because I think my first job, I was paid $22,000.

Kate McKibbin [00:05:15]:

Also this wasn't a grad job, this was like years after. So my very first salary I remember was 28,000. Okay? But this one was like low thirty s and I was in my mid to late twenty s at this point, living in Sydney, which is a very expensive city, so having loads of fun. But I had to work a part time job at a pet shop as well to be able to just afford my rent in my sharehouse with thousand other people. And then you're at your desk writing about the latest Prada shoes. I'm like, I'm never going to be able to afford this. This is and at that time was when online shopping was starting just to date myself a little bit and we were starting to get really exciting, like topshops to deliver to Australia and that was just mind blowing for everyone. And there was also at the same time there was a couple of newsletters, I don't know if you remember, like Daily Candy. There was a couple of others and they were a little like shopping recommendations. Everyone was subscribed to them that I knew you couldn't buy anything because it was all in the US. So I'm like, this is crazy. So I came up the idea to create a one a day, like a little shopping newsletter with know, cute little write up link to buy that was stuff that delivered that, you know, didn't matter if you're in Australia or in the US. You could purchase.

Suz Chadwick [00:06:44]:

So this was for you. This wasn't for the magazine that you're working for. This was like the first independent thing.

Kate McKibbin [00:06:50]:

That you were I had I took it to the magazine first because I was their online editor. So I was like, here's a thing that we could do. And their initial response was, don't think this online shopping thing is going to be a thing. I was like, okay, visionary, I do. Do you mind if I do this? And they're like, no, I got the blessing. And so off I went and it took off. I think we had about 30,000 subscribers in the first year and they had to start figuring out, okay, now how do I monetize it? And I went down that business model that I knew, which was advertising and advertorials and stuff, because I was coming from that background, did that for many years, realized that as a business model it sucked, that it was very hard. It required at the end of it. So this became drop dead gorgeous daily. At the end of it, we were getting like half a million visitors a month and all this stuff. But we had like six or seven writers because we were publishing like ten to twelve pieces of content a day. And it was just very expensive model to run, not super high revenue. And I end up doing all the ad sales, which was like my least favorite thing in the world. So I'm like, I hate this. There must be a better way. And around about the same time, I was getting loads of people asking me about how did you do it? How did you build it? How did you get that much traffic? How did you start working with brands and all this stuff? So I was like, oh, I'll just put it into maybe I'll create a little course, see what happens. That good old story doesn't seem to happen anymore. I was right place, right time. And so I wrote a blog post. I manually embedded a PayPal button into it that wasn't linked to anything. Like I had to then go and get their email addresses out of PayPal and Figure Out how I Was Going to Send them this thing Afterwards. And I just launched it. And people bought it. I'm like, oh, okay, we'll better go actually create this now. And that's kind of been my business strategy ever since.

Suz Chadwick [00:08:50]:

I love Was. So that was kind of business number one.

Kate McKibbin [00:08:55]:

Yeah. Business number one into business number two. And that was all very focused around blogging the original courses, and I just had fallen out of love with blogging by that point as well, and I just couldn't sort of in integrity, go out there and go, this is an amazing way to run a business. You should let me teach you how to do it. Like, yeah, I can teach you how to do it, but I don't really believe in it anymore. And through that whole process as we were trying to add in extra revenue streams. I'd been geeking out on having little funnels tripwires list building, all that stuff. And I'm like, this is the bit I actually enjoy. And it doesn't have to be for bloggers. It can be for people selling all kinds of things online. So. Yeah, that's when Hello Funnels was born.

Suz Chadwick [00:09:40]:

What year was that?

Kate McKibbin [00:09:42]:

So changed the name to hello. Funnels, the year that I got pregnant with my Son. So he was born in 2019, probably 2018, but I temporarily changed it to be in my own name for a while while I was figuring things out, because I just wanted to get the word blogger out of the title because it was called Secret Bloggers Business.

Suz Chadwick [00:10:01]:

Yes.

Kate McKibbin [00:10:01]:

And I'm like, if I no longer want to be working with bloggers, I can't have business called secret bloggers business. So I changed it to my own name for a bit, tested some stuff out, and then went all in on Hello, Funnels.

Suz Chadwick [00:10:14]:

Amazing because hello funnels is very specific.

Kate McKibbin [00:10:18]:

Yes.

Suz Chadwick [00:10:19]:

Where you were like, this is the future. This is where I'm going. This is what I love.

Kate McKibbin [00:10:24]:

I'm like, this is the future. For now, I've pretty much come to terms with the fact that I'm not going to be 80 doing the same thing. There's going to still be many. I'm sure there'll be many more pivots. I'll probably be Business 12.5 by that Point. But I was sort of happy enough. And I think I spent enough time playing with different things to know that I really enjoyed doing this side of things. And also it could be so impactful for people when they got it in their business. So I was like, I feel like that's kind of like a happy medium. But it was a scary moment because I'm like, how many times have I rebranded? Let's go and change.

Suz Chadwick [00:11:08]:

I think it's a really interesting conversation. There's two conversations I want to have, actually. I'm just like, let's talk about all the things The First One Is, let's talk about personal Brand versus Business Brand, because we're in a group chat and I was asking this question of the group around for BVC. Do you see yourself as a personal brand or do you see yourself as a business brand? And you were saying business brand for sure. I don't kind of want to be the face of the business. But you are, though.

Kate McKibbin [00:11:38]:

But only because I can't convince anyone else on my team to do it.

Suz Chadwick [00:11:48]:

Wanting to be the face.

Kate McKibbin [00:11:49]:

No, and I actually really don't want to be. And again, it's nothing as strategic as some people. Like, you don't want to be the face of a brand if you want to be able to sell it. I don't have necessarily that kind of exit in mind. I've been perfectly happy just to shut things down in the past and I'm sure I'll be happy just to shut this one down when it comes to it as well. But it's more that I don't know, even when I started the first ones, I wasn't the face of it and I think I always had that sort of model of you can be the editor. And so, like, with a magazine, there's the editor's letter, but the editor is not in every single photo inside the magazine. They're like, I helped to direct and create this, but it's not the Kate show. And I think also because I'm quite introverted as you know, having to coming up with stories and shit, it's just not my natural mode at all. And when you are a personal brand, I think you've really got to kind of lean into that and be happy to be like, hey, here's me doing this thing on the weekend. Whereas I'm like, I would only remember to do that if a reminder went off on my phone. I'd be like, okay, photo weekend, yay. And then I'm a definitely behind the scenes person, so I much prefer the tinkering in the background than the being out front.

Suz Chadwick [00:13:16]:

Yeah. And the way that you market your business a lot, obviously with the programs that you have is through advertising. You use a lot of ads. So are you doing a lot of organic or not really.

Kate McKibbin [00:13:32]:

I mean, most of our traffic comes from ads and I'm kind of happy for that to be that. I like that I don't have to rely on the organic. Obviously free is great, but I like the control that you kind of have when you're like, I can turn this lever up, I can turn this lever down. But even in the ads, it's funny because ads with pictures of me don't necessarily do any better than ads with pictures of just a model from Canva. So that makes me quite happy. But we still have to sprinkle some humanness in there. So I still for now, have to put on a bit of makeup. Well, before this, I took the dog for a walk with the beanie on and I took it off and I was like, oh God, but that's me. I'm wandering around the house with mumba and coffee on my t shirt. I'm not camera ready.

Suz Chadwick [00:14:30]:

Most all good. And I mean, like we always say, you either pay in time or you pay in money. So you either pay in organic where you're showing up and sharing, otherwise you pay in money through ads as well. But the second thing that I wanted to talk about was around just that ability to shut things down, the ability to just decide to change. And I think this is something that a lot of people fear. I think a lot of people struggle with as well, where it's kind of like, well, if I just change the name of the business, or if I just change the name of the course, or if I just totally burn it all down and start again, I would say majority of people are definitely not in that camp. So talk to me about that. What's your thought around if a program doesn't work or if something in the business isn't working, how do you make that shift?

Kate McKibbin [00:15:19]:

Yeah, none of these were like quick decisions. It was not like, this one thing hasn't worked, so let's shut it all down. It was definitely a process and almost and I think at each iteration it was a couple of years of feeling like I was just hitting a brick wall and I'm like, why can't I kind of break through this? And it was then almost kind of sitting around going, it's because I don't really want to. Even though I'm not super woo woo, I do kind of feel like every now and then you get these little intuitive hits and it's like, even though it's terrifying. When I moved on to business, three point whatever did callaway Funnels, I had to get rid of all the secret bloggers business courses they were all running on. Like it was probably about forty k a month of revenue that was coming in on pretty much autopilot. I got rid of all of it and then a few months later found out I was pregnant. I was like, Oops, like, terrible timing.

Suz Chadwick [00:16:23]:

But had you already got other things up and running when you let that all go?

Kate McKibbin [00:16:29]:

I tested but in a very sort of vague kind of it didn't even have really a name yet. I just had sort of gone out and had a few people who'd bought it and I was like, okay, let's see what kind of results they get. So I sort of been doing a little bit of testing behind the scenes and the same with Drop Dead Gorgeous Daily. Like, I sold the course and then secret bloggers business was growing and I was like, okay, I feel safe to let this go now. So it's not like I've ever been one of those people who's like, all right, I'm going to shut off all, shut this down and start something completely untested from scratch. I'm not that much of a risk taker and it did take probably like at least a year too long at each point where I was just driving myself crazy and to finally get up the courage to go no, I'm just going to do it, it'll be fine, I'll figure it out, kind of thing. It wasn't like you're like, oh I'm just sick of this, I'm going to start this. Oh and it worked. Yeah, it was definitely there was lots of staying up at night and getting different coaches to what's going on, why can't I fix this problem? I think for me I felt like it was just for each of them I sort of like I got a bit out of alignment with it and so I couldn't take it any further. So then it was like, okay, I need to what's the thing that's going to feel more like that? I'm going to love doing it and I'm going to be happy to be talking about it, promoting it and I know I can make a big impact for people and when all that kind of came back together then I was like, okay, this thing I can do. Yeah.

Suz Chadwick [00:18:09]:

And I mean I don't even think that that's woo. I think just listening to your gut when you're like, am I hitting a brick wall? Because I don't love this, because I don't want to talk about it because I don't believe in it anymore or whatever it is. But I think that that is something that when I talk to clients as well it's just like if you don't love it, why are you doing it? And I think sometimes it's just this, well I've been doing it for a really long time and how else would I do this or what else would I do? And I think it's just allowing ourselves to know that that evolution is going to come and almost preparing ourselves. It's like at some point something big is going to happen or something's going to change or you're going to want to do something else. How do you start preparing yourself for that as well? You've sort of said that you're at three point whatever and at some point it'll change. I know that sometimes when we have conversations we talk about what's working and what's not working. I mean, what do you think? Because the markets changed so much now? Do you feel like that? Is it just me, Kate, or do you feel like the market's gone through a massive change in the last like twelve months or so?

Kate McKibbin [00:19:17]:

I think yeah, it definitely has been a big, it's been a big change. But a lot of the things I don't know, the stuff that I feel like it's almost like going back to a bit more old school. Because I know that's kind of what we've been because we've been going deep into numbers and stuff. Because I think this year has been really about for us anyway, finding where's the holes and where's the gaps. Because the two years previously was quite like everything was just kind of rolling along pretty easily. So you could kind of get away with having these, oh, we've got some gaps in our numbers. We're not exactly sure where this person came from or how they found us, but it doesn't matter, it's all working. We'll just keep doing what we're doing. Whereas this year, I think it's just gotten so much more important to be like, well, what is the activities that are actually moving the needle for us? What does our buyer journey actually really look like, really diving into that and focusing on that. I don't think the tools of the trade have changed so much, but I just think where previously you could kind of get away with doing things a bit half assed or doing things that weren't as dialed in and it would still work pretty well now. I think you just have to be a bit more focused on less different tactics, like figuring out the right ones for you, but just making those, really mastering those tactics rather than being like, oh, we'll just try this thing and see what happens. We'll just try this thing, see what happens, and everyone is just floating around in their COVID, the government's just throwing money around kind of phase. But yeah, I think now with a lot of the changes that are happening, I just think that consumers are just a bit more cautious and deliberate with what they're doing and so the holes are becoming evident and so you just got to go and find those holes. But hopefully I think we're just talking about before that. It feels like this second half of the year feels a little less like gridlocked than the start of the year, more optimistic.

Suz Chadwick [00:21:35]:

Yeah, but it's definitely for everybody that's listening. I kind of felt like you were saying the last three years, whilst there was a lot of turbulence and a bit of a nightmare, there was a lot of money. Not for everybody, but for a lot of people, because people weren't going on holidays and people weren't spending on other things. So they just kind of spent on their personal development and kind of moving themselves forward and things like that. So it was really interesting if you were already set up in the online space. A lot of people I know did really well.

Kate McKibbin [00:22:15]:

Yeah, and I think a lot of people, obviously they were stuck at home. People were getting a bit reflective about, okay, working for someone else. Maybe this isn't the lifestyle that I actually wanted. And especially in the US, they were giving out grants and things like confetti. It was ridiculous. I was talking to some clients about it and I was like, wow, I thought they were handing out the money over here. But it was a whole nother level. You get a loan from the government for like a million dollars just by signing a form, kind of and now everyone's like, okay, back to normal a little bit, but also much less money floating about. So that just obviously makes everything like as soon as people it's a whole what is it? Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like, as soon as people go, oh, I might not be able to pay for groceries and for my mortgage or my rent, then everything else is just going to go out the window. And any sort of spending that they do do has to be.

Suz Chadwick [00:23:16]:

They'Re thinking about it.

Kate McKibbin [00:23:19]:

There's a lot more, for sure.

Suz Chadwick [00:23:22]:

And so I'd love to know because you are a numbers person, which is not always my strongest suit. I like them, I don't love them.

Kate McKibbin [00:23:31]:

I sent you a spreadsheet once and you just wrote back, this hurts my brain and I was so proud of it. I'm like, this is going to make it seem all like, explain everything suze and you're no, no. I'm like, OK, our brains work. Really?

Suz Chadwick [00:23:45]:

I love that. Yeah, that is how I feel sometimes. But I do love a good spreadsheet. I think I like a content spreadsheet more than a numbers spreadsheet, so I can fill in lots of content ideas and things like that. But when you start getting into percentages and conversions and numbers, I know that we need them, we do use them, but I'm just like, all right, let me look at this. My husband is very analytical. But listen, I would love to know what are some of the things that you've implemented over the years in your business that you think has had the biggest impact for you? Like where you were like, we did this and everything changed, or it just helped our business grow or it gave me a lot of time back. What are some of those things that have been, I guess, pivotal?

Kate McKibbin [00:24:36]:

We know I'm going to say funnels, right?

Suz Chadwick [00:24:40]:

Really? I'm so surprised.

Kate McKibbin [00:24:42]:

Yeah, no, but I think it's been a couple of things. One is getting kind of really clear on what our best offer was because I'm a bit of a constant creator. Like, I'm always like, oh, new idea, oh, new idea. But knowing what the bread and butter is, knowing what our sort of real Signature offer was and just having a bit of an all roads lead to this kind of mentality, particularly in the first couple of years with the new brand was really helpful. But for us, definitely taking the time to get the automated sales set up, particularly because with our Signature program, it's a higher investment. And I never wanted to do sales calls, so I always had a bit of a, oh, well, I'm never going to be able to sell a higher investment program because I'll have to do sales calls and I refuse that's. One of my non negotiables in my business. So I'm like, I'm just going to create offers where I don't have to do that, and then kind of being able to find that middle ground of pricing that still allowed us to deliver really great value, but that didn't require a sales call. And having a process that was automated to be able to take people through that process, give them the information that they needed, give them the chance to reach out if they wanted to ask any questions. But that basically allowed us to make sales of a higher ticket program that was sort of letting me teach the things I wanted to teach in the way that I wanted to teach it, but without having to sell in a way that I didn't want to sell. So when we got that piece in place and working right off a right sort of sales and conversion system, I.

Suz Chadwick [00:26:32]:

Guess, were you doing sales calls at the beginning?

Kate McKibbin [00:26:35]:

Never.

Suz Chadwick [00:26:36]:

Never? Okay.

Kate McKibbin [00:26:37]:

No, I just flat out refuse because I wouldn't.

Suz Chadwick [00:26:43]:

No.

Kate McKibbin [00:26:44]:

A number of coaches I've had over the years as well who are like.

Suz Chadwick [00:26:47]:

You'Ve got to have a ten K program.

Kate McKibbin [00:26:48]:

I still don't have a ten K program, and you've got to do sales calls. I'm like, but why? Because that's the only way you're going to grow. Surely there's other ways. I didn't start my own business to have to do things that I hate doing. That's why I got rid of business one. And two. I definitely wasn't going to do that with business number three. That was a real game changer for us, the fact that because I also don't love launching, prefer to not do it unless we've got something new that we want to sort of talk about. So being able to just be like, right, we've got our system set up in the background, they all work. So now all we're doing is focusing on how can we try and bring value, increase engagement, and just keep talking to the people who are finding us so that they then can when they're ready, they can come and jump in, get the information they need and potentially join. But that piece is all automated. It just frees up a lot of time and a lot of sort of brain space as well to go, particularly that sort of so we've got a thing inside our program. We call it like the Financial Freedom Checkpoint, and it's like a metric we use as well, where the combination of your MRR, which is, does everyone know what that means? Monthly recurring revenue revenue and your new sales that have come through your funnel. So basically, hands free revenue covers your budget for the month. So it's sort of like the closest thing to having like, a paycheck. As an entrepreneur, it's like, all right, I know that if we're spending this amount a month and I'm paying myself this amount that our funnels need to make roughly this. And then anything else. Like if we do a little promotion or whatever, that's going to be on top and that's always like our minimum kind of checkpoint of business health, I guess.

Suz Chadwick [00:28:44]:

Yeah.

Kate McKibbin [00:28:46]:

Sorry, I went off on many tangents there.

Suz Chadwick [00:28:48]:

No, I love that. So it was like one of the biggest things. So putting funnels in place. I'd love to talk about team. Like when you first started the business, did you already have a team? Did you bring people over from secret bloggers business or were you just starting from.

Kate McKibbin [00:29:07]:

Was more so with Hello Funnels? It was myself. I tried to bring like one person from Drop Dead Gorgeous Daily into secret bloggers business. It just didn't work because it was too they wanted to write about now polishing shoes. And even though they're all amazing, I just couldn't convince them to come and write about marketing or so I think it was me and my VA, who I've just had forever. Like Sarah, I think she's been with me for like eleven years.

Suz Chadwick [00:29:38]:

Wow.

Kate McKibbin [00:29:39]:

So I think that was just the two of us.

Suz Chadwick [00:29:42]:

And is she full time in your business?

Kate McKibbin [00:29:45]:

No, she's only like and she's like customer service admin, kind of like all the little detailed bits that I'll just procrastinate on forever and will never happen because it's not the details that I find fun anyway. So, yeah, no, it was just the two of us to start with and I feel like I had an OBM. No, what happened was when I started sorry, when I started Hello Funnels and then found out I was pregnant, I was like, oh, I'm going to need more. You know, I've got to get the automations happening so I can have a maternity leave. And I kind of built what I call my maternity leave funnel. And then I need team just to make sure everything's like, ticking over. And then all I planned on doing was jumping into the Facebook group and answering questions on my phone while burping babies or whatever. So I hired an OBM. And then like a week after my son was born, she went Mia. And then she messaged me a couple of weeks later saying and she'd been working with me for about six months at this point, just saying that her and her boyfriend had broken up. And so she was too sad. To work and she just wasn't going to be able to work for but.

Suz Chadwick [00:31:05]:

Didn'T feel the need to let you know that she wasn't going to be around when you went on maternity leave.

Kate McKibbin [00:31:10]:

Yeah, I was like, but I hired you for this one reason and obviously I was like, I know that sucks and it can be very heartbreaking, but.

Suz Chadwick [00:31:16]:

Just a simple email would have, yeah.

Kate McKibbin [00:31:18]:

Just let me know. Or maybe do you think you might feel like, bit better in a week and be able to keep working? Like, do you need to just completely leave me in the lurch. Then there was a bit of scramble to get a couple of other people in place, but I think the team that I have now, most of them have been with me for several years.

Suz Chadwick [00:31:38]:

So give me a breakdown. Who I don't mean names like what positions have you got in your team?

Kate McKibbin [00:31:43]:

Yeah, my beer. Who's as I've been with forever, she's customer service and admin. We've got a community cheerleader, so she kind of makes sure that all the trains run on time. So she's like anything that needs to go into a calendar for our actual clients, all the reminders, following up with people, making sure everybody, if any, someone's dropped off, reaching out to them, celebrating people's head wins, all that. She's just in charge of making sure that's all running smoothly. Got an OBM who's very tech heavy. So she basically I'd normally go in and I start building something crazy and then I hand it over to her to make sure it actually works. Because I'm like, I've had this idea and I've half built it and yes, can you now go and do the fiddly bits to make sure that it all actually runs nicely? And then a content producer, because obviously I think I've already said it's not my I used to love it. I think I just ran out of words after doing ten blog posts a day or whatever ridiculousness we were doing back in the day. And then there's me. I'm sorry. We have obviously someone doing our Facebook ads as well, but they're sort of external freelancer versus core. So that kind of means that.

Suz Chadwick [00:33:09]:

Because.

Kate McKibbin [00:33:09]:

My son's still young, I really wanted to only be working part time until he was at school as well. So I know there's pieces in that that I could do more of if I was working full time. But I thought that would that's kind of like the priority in these years and then once he's back to school full time, just look out.

Suz Chadwick [00:33:29]:

Do you feel like you've got the balance that you want right now? Do you believe in balance? How does that whole because last week or the week before, we talked about ambition and ease in business, how you balance those two things, where do you sit with that? Do you have really big goals and really big dreams and wanting to conquer the world? Or are you kind of like, I'm pretty happy with things that tick along and work the way that I want.

Kate McKibbin [00:33:59]:

Yeah, I've never been the big, like, I'm going to go and change the world kind of person. I've always just been like, I want to help some people, I want to enjoy my life. I'd like to leave the world a better place, hopefully, than I found it. And as long as I'm for me, working for myself was always like, I just want to be able to do something that I enjoy every day, that's what I'm going to be spending majority of my life doing. I want to actually like doing it and preferably also that it pays me enough to actually have a lifestyle I enjoy as well. But I don't need a Ferrari or a mansion. I'm a bit more of a like, as long as everything's sort of ticking along, my number one goal is paying off our mortgage. That's about it. That's sort of goal number one for me.

Suz Chadwick [00:34:50]:

So good. Yeah, that's a big goal for me too. I'm just like, yes. I just want to be able to one day just be like and there, we're done, I'm finished. That would be amazing.

Kate McKibbin [00:35:01]:

Yeah. No, I remember listening to a podcast once. I forget who it was, but they said that they'd set themselves and this is someone like, who's very actually, I do remember who was it was Jenna Kutcher, but I remember listening to Pope. She's like, it was our goal this year to basically mean that everything was paid off and we had enough in investments that if I wanted to, I didn't have to work. And I was just like, yeah, that would be really cool. Yeah, not near there yet, but that would be a cool feeling. But then it doesn't mean you'd stop working. It just means that you're actually doing it because you love it.

Suz Chadwick [00:35:32]:

Yeah. There's not the stress, the money stress with it.

Kate McKibbin [00:35:36]:

Yeah. Me and my husband even had this I don't know why he got in his head that he wanted to go and buy a lotto ticket and we're going to win $30 million. You know, when those big ones come.

Suz Chadwick [00:35:45]:

Up, manifesting it, you got to believe it.

Kate McKibbin [00:35:47]:

Yeah. So he's like, oh, when we win $30 million, what are you going to do? And I'm like, probably just have a complete existential cris. Because if your motivation I think I would enjoy spending it for the first year or so and then I'd be like, oh, my God, what's the motivator? Now if it's not just like, yeah, let's pay off the house, let's do this. I'm like, we've got all those things. Then you need to go and find a whole new sorry, I've taken you off on another tangent here.

Suz Chadwick [00:36:20]:

No, I love I'm here for tangents. They're so good.

Kate McKibbin [00:36:24]:

Yeah.

Suz Chadwick [00:36:24]:

Now I'm just like for me, I'm like, yeah, I'd pay off the house and I'd buy the kids properties and I'd get myself a new car and then I'd probably just bank it and we just have really incredible, amazing holidays.

Kate McKibbin [00:36:35]:

Yes.

Suz Chadwick [00:36:35]:

Like, I would be flying first class everywhere and I would just want to go to incredible places and do amazing things, but once that's kind of it. Yeah.

Kate McKibbin [00:36:48]:

So then you need to go find okay, well, what's going to be the thing that's going to find your brain?

Suz Chadwick [00:36:55]:

I think I would still work, but I just think it would be just in a very different way. I think for me, I would want to do more speaking and maybe more writing and all of that sort of stuff. And so, yeah, I don't know. I think it would just look a bit different. Like, I think I would do more of the personal brand stuff, and I'd still do some coaching, but it would be probably maybe three days a week. Yeah, two days a week, maybe, kind of thing, just to keep doing stuff I love. But, yeah, I'd be too busy traveling. Kate that's the thing.

Kate McKibbin [00:37:36]:

I think it's just such an interesting question to kind of put to yourself because it then starts to highlight, well, what are the bits in my business that I love and I would want to do regardless? And there's definitely and I think for me, because I said I love tinkering in the back end, I'm like, I would just want to be able to set it up. That almost like, we could be constantly experimenting with things. So I'd want to get some team in. So I'd be like, what would happen if we did this? And then we could go and do it and then go, oh, that's interesting. Well, now that would be see, now.

Suz Chadwick [00:38:09]:

I would hire somebody to do that. So I would hire, like, an ops manager. I would have, like, a content team. I would have somebody who just does they're, like, the person that's like, okay, let's try this, let's try that. And I'm just kind of swanning. I've got a girlfriend who she's in a corporate job, but she's like, darling, I only do glamour and strategy. She's in marketing, but she's like, we only do glamour and strategy.

Kate McKibbin [00:38:36]:

When people come to me with the.

Suz Chadwick [00:38:37]:

Details, I don't want to know. I'm just like, okay, I need more glamour and strategy in my life. So, yeah, I would just hire the back end of my business, and I would just be the face, the voice, the ideas, like, all of that. That's fun to think about.

Kate McKibbin [00:38:54]:

I would hire the front end of my business. I would be the yeah, for $30 million, I could probably go and find, like, a doppelganger somewhere and just make them pretend like AI something or other.

Suz Chadwick [00:39:11]:

I find AI scary. I was watching there was an ad, and it said, if you're not using AI to create your online courses, it was like, what are you even doing? But the actual AI generated person who was speaking, we were like, oh, that's so creepy.

Kate McKibbin [00:39:32]:

Yeah, the AI. Thing and the whole, like, I know everyone's, like, jumping on it, and I think there's amazing things that we can do, obviously, with AI. And it's going to be a very interesting tool also just terrifies me.

Suz Chadwick [00:39:45]:

Yes, agree.

Kate McKibbin [00:39:47]:

And the least terrifying level is what it's going to do to we already were kind of, like, in an era of because of the way social media works, of a lot of it being like quantity over quality. And there's already lots of people who are kind of jumping into this space who are like, oh, this is going to be a fast way to make money, so I'm just going to churn this thing out and get it out there. And I'm all for moving quickly and testing and whatever, but if we now can have AI just creating the content and creating everything, there's no quality controls on that, there's no uniqueness on that. It just feels like I just want to get off all social media right now. I'm like, if it's just going to be like, just churn, churn, churn, not even. It was kind of bad enough when everyone's just like, going, let's just use templates. And now it's the same caption everywhere and the same pose. The pictures are all the same, and everyone just sort of is blending into a bit of a generic kind of blur, because that's whatever the current trend is, AI is just going to amplify that.

Suz Chadwick [00:41:02]:

Yeah, and I saw a TikTok the other day or something where somebody was like, oh, basically you don't need to have done it. You can just ask AI, like, how would I write a marketing strategy? And then you can just tell people. And I'm just like, oh, it's almost like somebody's going to tell me this information, I'm going to regurgitate it, but I actually have no expertise, experience, knowledge around it. And I just thought, wow, that is scary.

Kate McKibbin [00:41:36]:

But yeah, where's the doing thousand hours? Actually being in the trenches, learning it, learning your own different version of it to make that's what kind of makes you have a different offering to the 10,000 other people doing in the same space. If everyone's just going to be typing into AI, write me a marketing course and AI will just go, okay, now I have a marketing course. But that's just I don't know.

Suz Chadwick [00:42:04]:

Yeah, I know.

Kate McKibbin [00:42:06]:

That worries me.

Suz Chadwick [00:42:09]:

I know. Okay, so two other things we've got some time a little bit is number one, what are some changes that you're making in your business now? Like, based on AI, where the market's going? What's happening with courses? Is there anything where you're like, these are some things that we're really thinking about or looking to do for us?

Kate McKibbin [00:42:33]:

Two things. One, we have been spending a fair bit of time on getting our data really dialed in, like having really good strong dashboards, because we've always tracked everything and it was almost like it was too much, but it didn't tell the full story. And I think anyone who's got a tech stack where it's know your emails over here and your course is over here and your checkout's over here, and Facebook ads obviously keep changing what you can and can't track, and so it can be very difficult to get that full story. So been spending a fair bit of time on that and it's been really interesting.

Suz Chadwick [00:43:12]:

Do you feel like you're getting the insights that you want from the data?

Kate McKibbin [00:43:18]:

Well, I feel like we're 80% there. We've got some really good stuff out of there, some more stuff in there that I think we just need to figure out how to particularly in sort of like an automated way without my poor VA having to daily. Be logging into a thousand places and chucking into a spreadsheet to be able to have this actually be something where I just log into one dashboard and it just tells me everything. But that's been very interesting, particularly for us with a higher ticket program because our buying cycle is a bit longer. So it was very much like, how do you know which ads or which pieces of content or even which things you've done live have actually ended up being the thing that either attracted the right person in the first place or was the thing that made them go, okay, I'm ready now. I've now got all the information that I need. If they're now buying 90 days later, when no pixel is tracking that, So that was a story that I was very interested in making sure we actually fully understood. So that's been really great. And then the other thing just for us, as I said, we've got this funnel working in the background. I keep changing it, breaking it, and then putting it back.

Suz Chadwick [00:44:36]:

Putting it back to what it was.

Kate McKibbin [00:44:38]:

Put to what it was, yeah, okay, yeah, I went and updated it, I redid all the videos, everything was gorgeous. And then it didn't convert as well as the scrappy things that I threw in the first place. So I'm like, okay, undo all that, undo. But for us, it's just now like, okay, we have this little machine that runs in the background. So I kind of now see our job as being how can we put out value in new and interesting ways that keep getting give people more chances to sort of engage and to build trust and to build to get a bit more educated. Because obviously our funnels is not a beginner topic, it's a slightly more advanced topic. We're just focusing on how can we sort of in again as systemized away as possible without driving myself crazy by just constantly having to create new things. But yeah, how can we sort of be out there creating these new little moments of engagement and connection now that we know a bit more of our buyer journey? It takes that sort of pressure off. This thing has to immediately convert to sales because actually we know that people need to have two to three touch points with us over some people convert in the first 30 days, but then you have a lot of people who it might be a year later, two years later. So just being able to stay top of mind to show have different ways of creating opportunities for them to come in and connect or to get curious about the topic and sort of finally go. Because funnels is one of those things that's never number one on anybody's to do list. It's always like, what, that'd be nice, but I've got to do all these other things first.

Suz Chadwick [00:46:26]:

I think.

Kate McKibbin [00:46:26]:

I think a lot of people have that, like, oh, when I get to here then.

Suz Chadwick [00:46:29]:

And I think people find it hard. I think people find funnels, it feels like it can be difficult. There's a lot of pieces depending on how complex your funnel is, but there can be a lot of pieces up and down to that. And I think that apart from the simplest form of a funnel, I think people find it a bit difficult to understand.

Kate McKibbin [00:46:55]:

And it's not a sexy thing, it's not a quick fix, something you're going to get done on a weekend. It usually requires a bit of, okay, roll your sleeves up, build this thing, test it, tweak it. Making the space for that can be difficult for people. But the ones that do are always really glad they did because it has such a big impact. But yeah, when you've got 1000 other competing priorities that are a bit more immediate, it's the eating the broccoli and exercising every day.

Suz Chadwick [00:47:32]:

Eating the broccoli. Have you seen that one where they eat the broccoli and smell the chocolate as they eat the broccoli?

Kate McKibbin [00:47:37]:

No, really?

Suz Chadwick [00:47:39]:

Maybe that's like right down my TikTok hole.

Kate McKibbin [00:47:42]:

I think that would just give me an aversion to chocolate, actually. Maybe that's a good idea.

Suz Chadwick [00:47:47]:

I think we taste what we smell anyway. That really is a tangent we're not going to go down. But just one tech question on that. What funnel tech do you use? Is there any tech where you're like.

Kate McKibbin [00:47:59]:

We love this, we love ActiveCampaign.

Suz Chadwick [00:48:02]:

Yes.

Kate McKibbin [00:48:04]:

I think Convertkit's also good, but I think it's a bit of a like are you an iPhone or a Samsung person? Some people just works for their brain and the other one doesn't.

Suz Chadwick [00:48:12]:

So you build all of yours in AC? In ActiveCampaign?

Kate McKibbin [00:48:15]:

Yeah, everything. We don't use any of their page builders or anything like that. We just have the most basic, basic plan. We don't use any of their other fancy features. They keep trying to get us to upgrade and I'm like, no, sorry, I don't need it. And then we use Show It for all of our website, landing pages, blog and everything. I love Show It and then I'm not particularly then we kind of have every tech because part of our program is showing people how to use stuff. So we have to have a subscription to absolutely everything. So when we're like, oh, we need to do a webinar, which of the three webinar softwares we pay for, shall we use? It's just sort of and I'm not particularly in love or enamored with any of them or the course, where they all sort of do what they need. But those two, I'm quite ash campaign and show it. We use Kajabi and also thrive cart.

Suz Chadwick [00:49:17]:

Learn for our how are you finding thrive cart learn I've bought Thrive Cart. I have not worked out how to use it properly yet because I just bought it a little while ago and I'm just like, another thing to learn. But, yeah, you like I love I.

Kate McKibbin [00:49:31]:

Do love Thrive car. I feel like I'm hoping because they got acquired, I believe, not long ago, so I'm hoping they'll get a bit more investment put into them because they're lagging a little bit behind of like, the Sam carts and stuff like that. But it's a good OD. It's a lifetime license, so they're not obviously going, yeah, so you kind of have to weigh those pros and cons. But Thrive part Learn, it's good, it's basic. It doesn't have all some of the bells and whistles, but sometimes you don't actually need the bells. And like, I remember when I created my very first, like, the only course I'd taken before that was B School. And so I saw how beautiful Marie Folio's course platform was and I'm like, Mine has to look like this.

Suz Chadwick [00:50:16]:

Yeah, it was a lot, wasn't it? We were talking about this in our chat group the other day. I think I did it in 2014, maybe, and it was just like, so stunning. So when you do your first course, you're like, oh, my God, that has to be amazing. It has to.

Kate McKibbin [00:50:30]:

And then you log into Teachable and you're like, Is this all I can do?

Suz Chadwick [00:50:37]:

I love it.

Kate McKibbin [00:50:38]:

But, yeah, I did kind of learn come around to that lesson that spending the time and the effort and whatever on trying to make something pretty, make it better.

Suz Chadwick [00:50:49]:

There's a guy that I love, Justin Welsh, he does LinkedIn and he's got a course which is like 150 USD, if you want to check it out@suechadowick.com. Justin, that's my affiliate. Because the other thing is, I think he uses Kajabi. It is the most basic setup. The quality of the content is amazing. If you love LinkedIn, if you want to learn LinkedIn, he's just in like a sweat top and it's almost like a Loom video where he's just up in the corner. But the content itself is so good. And it just reminded me and he's made like over $3 million with that or something, and it just reminded me that at the end of the day, the content is what matters, like the ability to get your client, the transformation for them to learn exactly what you're teaching. And I think sometimes we overcomplicate it and feel like it needs to look a certain way in order for it to sell or for people to get the outcomes. And just watching that course that he did, I was just like, if he can make $3 million in a hoodie, using loom and putting it into Kajabi. I think the simplest thing works really well.

Kate McKibbin [00:52:06]:

I think that's again, not a tangent, but the way that as women and I know I'm going to massively generalize.

Suz Chadwick [00:52:15]:

Us as a I know what you're going to say and I'm going to agree.

Kate McKibbin [00:52:17]:

Yeah, but we're like, okay, to do a video, I have to have perfect hair and I have to do my makeup and the lighting is going to be right and I've got to clean up all the dirty washing that's behind me and blah, blah, blah. And then you watch all these dude marketers and course creators is and they're just like, whack on a hat. They're wandering around while they're just walking down the street having a chat. Or I've seen one of the guys just lying in bed. He just woke up and decided to record something. I'm like, Why do we put so many barriers in front of ourselves and slow ourselves down? But then on the other side of it, the expectations there. And I know I've just done just done looms or not looms, but like a reel or whatever where I've got messy hair and it's dark rainy day and the lighting is sad and they get very low engagement, whereas you put on a bit of makeup and you do your hair nicely, and all of a sudden people are like, oh, yes, you're a female on the Internet. We have a certain expectation of you. We'll now engage with you. Again, I don't know. It makes me mad. But maybe Greta Gerwig can make her next movie about online entrepreneurs.

Suz Chadwick [00:53:27]:

Maybe. But I think it's really interesting because I feel like this is such a long time ago, but there was a woman, I think she was on YouTube or somewhere, but she would record and she'd have dirty washing in the background. And she did it on purpose because of the number of comments that people would make about why was there a sock on the floor? And she's like, and the reason I do that is because the more comments I get, the more virality. So she used to use those little things where it wasn't perfect as almost like the main thing that would encourage people to be like, your room is clean, except you have a sock on the left. And she was just like, thank you for your comment, which I thought was so good. Have you got five more minutes?

Kate McKibbin [00:54:12]:

Yeah.

Suz Chadwick [00:54:13]:

Awesome. Because I wanted to ask you, what are you listening to or consuming right now? Like, who are people that you're seeing in the online space where you're like, oh, I love them, they're so good, or anything like that.

Kate McKibbin [00:54:28]:

Well, I think my answer to this is not going to make you happy, because at the moment I go through phases where I'm like, all right, I just need all the motivation, I need all the new just fill my brain up. And then I go through phases like, no full sorry, customer no longer taking information, thank you very much. And I'm in that phase at the moment, so I'm just listening to trash. My favorite podcast at the moment is the and just like that, after each episode, someone does a recap of the episode and they discuss Sex in the City reboot.

Suz Chadwick [00:55:00]:

Yeah. Oh, my gosh, that's so hilarious. I have to say, I am loving it that Aiden is now back a little bit. Although the last episode was a bit full on.

Kate McKibbin [00:55:09]:

Yeah. Why is it that men crying on TV makes us all feel so like? It's the embedded toxic masculinity that we kind of can't get past because we.

Suz Chadwick [00:55:22]:

Just don't see it. And it's not just crying. It's like the ugly cry. It's like the heartfelt, hysterical cry.

Kate McKibbin [00:55:31]:

You just don't see that.

Suz Chadwick [00:55:32]:

You never see that. Like men being portrayed like a Dawson.

Kate McKibbin [00:55:37]:

It's like, that Dawson's Creek meme. You know, the Dawson's Creek crying based meme. I'm like, I want to see the Aiden one next to it. But they did just get renewed for season three.

Suz Chadwick [00:55:46]:

I did see that. I love that we go from Funnels to Sex in the City. This is, like, so good.

Kate McKibbin [00:55:53]:

Yeah, that's my two favorite topics.

Suz Chadwick [00:55:54]:

I have to and you're a vampy like me, aren't you? We're talking about vampire shows as well.

Kate McKibbin [00:56:04]:

Yeah, I dip in and out. I can't go too. I need to break it up a bit. I can't have too much blood sucking happening in a like, I need some alive people for a while and then I can go back to the yeah.

Suz Chadwick [00:56:19]:

Oh, my gosh, it's hilarious because Kate sent me a message going, I'm watching Discovery, which is I'm like, yeah, I did that ages ago. And then because you told me, I went and rewatched it because I'm like.

Kate McKibbin [00:56:28]:

It's been a while, I need to.

Suz Chadwick [00:56:29]:

Get back into it. Yeah, I love all of that. So you're listening to the podcast.

Kate McKibbin [00:56:34]:

What's it called? It's called Still Watching It's by Vanity Fair. So they do a different season.

Suz Chadwick [00:56:40]:

I'm writing it down, but yeah, they're.

Kate McKibbin [00:56:44]:

Just going through and pulling apart every episode. I almost want to be able to message them going, no, this was a.

Suz Chadwick [00:56:50]:

Good there must be a chat somewhere about it. Can you go chat on where they're posting the episode or something?

Kate McKibbin [00:56:57]:

Yeah, they've probably got an Instagram thread going somewhere that I can dive into. I do try and have all my apps blocked during the day. Otherwise, other than messenger, which I probably should block because I just spend half my time sending everybody memes and gifts.

Suz Chadwick [00:57:14]:

Anything else you're listening to or watching?

Kate McKibbin [00:57:17]:

I mean, I've always loved when I am feeling like I need a bit of like I love Alex Hormozi's podcast, even if I have mixed feelings about his new book. I love Chris Harder and Laurie Harder have.

Suz Chadwick [00:57:33]:

You. I know the names. I know Laurie Harder's name, but I've not really been in their well, they.

Kate McKibbin [00:57:40]:

Had I was in a Mastermind with them years ago, and I didn't know, like, I hadn't kind of come across them before that. And they were just such lovely, amazing human beings with just such an incredible story. I started following them on their podcasts, and I find they give really good I love a very unscripted style of podcast, even though I know there's some great ones out there which are quite polished. I can't handle them. I listen to them. I don't like the sound of someone's reading voice. I'm like, I want you to just riff at me. So I like those more often. Yeah. So that's probably my two.

Suz Chadwick [00:58:19]:

And so do you listen to their podcast? Have they got a podcast?

Kate McKibbin [00:58:22]:

Well, they each have their own podcast, and then they do episodes together as, like, husband and wife because they've both got two different businesses.

Suz Chadwick [00:58:29]:

We'll have the links in the show notes. I'll have to check them out.

Kate McKibbin [00:58:32]:

Yes. The Laurie harder is called earn your happy. And then I think it's just the Chris Harder podcast is Chris's one.

Suz Chadwick [00:58:38]:

You're happy. Okay, cool. Awesome. Oh, so good. I love that we need play as well as work, so I think it's important. I like the guilty feminist. That's one that's not a businessy. One that I quite enjoy as well. But I don't think I think most of mine are sort of businessy. I do like the life coaching school, but that's also a bit businessy and life coaching. We just need some oh, you know, shame. Is it not shameless?

Kate McKibbin [00:59:03]:

Is it smart? That's my other favorite. I kind of feel like they're, like, friends.

Suz Chadwick [00:59:13]:

Long, and they've got that is it Netflix? They've got their show on Netflix or one of the streaming services.

Kate McKibbin [00:59:19]:

I think that's the power of having a long running podcast that people just consume every week. You kind of almost feel like you've got this personal relationship with someone that you've literally never met.

Suz Chadwick [00:59:31]:

Yeah. So good. I love it. Awesome. I think that was it. I think we went from funnels to story to vampire to covered. That's what fireside chats are. Yeah. We have no structure. We see where it goes. I love it. It's so good.

Kate McKibbin [00:59:50]:

Well, this is just like, people coming and having a little fly on the wall of us sitting in a coffee shop and being the crazy cackling ladies in the corner while everyone else is having their business, serious business meetings.

Suz Chadwick [01:00:07]:

I'm here for it. I am so here for it. So, so good. All right, so, Kate, where can people find you and tell us what's the name of your podcast as well?

Kate McKibbin [01:00:15]:

Podcast is called doing it online. Because I do love a little double entendre.

Suz Chadwick [01:00:22]:

That's why we're friends.

Kate McKibbin [01:00:23]:

Yeah, don't Google doingitonline.com, by the way. It's straight up have the link in the show notes. And yeah, just at hello. Funnels on pretty much everywhere other than TikTok and Threads because I just can't do new platforms. I gave up three years ago on new platforms, and I'm sticking with my current ones. But, yes, come say hi. Come know. Listen to more ramblings about Funnels if they interest you.

Suz Chadwick [01:00:55]:

So good. Amazing. Kate, thanks so much for coming in, hanging out. I can't wait to share this. It's so fun. I'll see you in a coffee shop really soon.

Kate McKibbin [01:01:03]:

Yeah, I look forward to it.

Suz Chadwick [01:01:05]:

So fun. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I love Kate. Make sure you go check her out. She is a wealth of knowledge, and she's amazing. And I hope you enjoy this fireside chat. Let me know what you think about the format. If you enjoy these types of episodes as well, I would love to know. Send me a DM on Instagram. If you're not following me, obviously, make sure you come over and follow me at Sue Chadwick. But also, feel free to share this episode. Leave us a review, whatever you want to do, we appreciate it, but otherwise, I'll see you soon.