Today I am speaking with Tara McMullin – podcaster, writer, and small business community leader. With over a decade of experience helping thousands of small business owners grow their businesses, she's on a mission to change the dialogue about what's really working from hype to candid conversation.

She's the host of the What Works podcast, a top small business podcast that's been recommended by Forbes and Entrepreneur, as well as the founder of The What Works Network, a community hub for small business owners. Tara is also the co-founder of YellowHouse.Media, a full-service podcast production agency & consultancy.

Tara is a bestselling Money & Life instructor on CreativeLive. Her work has been featured on Fast Company, Inc, Daily Worth, and The Huffington Post.

TRANSCRIPT

Tara McMullin, welcome to the Brand Builder' Lab podcast! I am super excited to have you here. So tell us a little about yourself and your business.

It's a podcast production agency called Yellow House Media, we're specialising in start to finish production. So everything from helping people get a show off the ground or taking over a show that they've been producing helping them do content strategy, really thinking through how to make the show as useful to their business and effective for their business as possible. Taking on all of the admin and project management pieces. Obviously taking on the editing, taking on some of the promotional pieces and just really having a very hands on, very client focused, process driven agency for podcasting and it's been after, you know, years and years in the digital products world. It has been really fascinating to dip my toes back into client services. And I'm definitely approaching it completely differently than I would have even five years ago. And so it's, it's been really eye opening. It's been a lot of fun. And I cannot wait to see even where we can take it just in this, this first year.

Amazing. What made you go in that direction?

We moved from the west coast of the United States to the east coast of the United States four years ago. And he quit his job out there to move with me here. And so he'd been kind of dabbling in a bunch of things for a while and it was kinda like, all right, I think it's time to get something a little more solid, a little more structured underway. And at the same time that we were kind of talking that through and brainstorming that I was really down to sing just a huge gaping hole in the market, which is that all of the podcasters I knew were outsourcing.
And I was like, well, we can do all of that at once so that people don't have to worry about the project management. They can just show up and make content. And I also didn't see anyone doing anything on the content strategy side. They were either just kind of, you know, you know, playing it as they went and kind of blind by the seat of their pants or they were pulling a content strategy from YouTube or from blogging or from email things that they had done before that seemed to work and trying to apply it to podcasting. And you know, I've been podcasting for four and a half years now and so I tried all those things. I've seen what works, I've seen what it did and I've gotten a really good feel for audio as a medium for communicating with people and teaching things and telling stories.

I could see an opportunity for that kind of strategic expertise in the market as well. And so we thought, let’s just package that all together and see what happens! I thought it was going to take off kind of slow at the beginning. Like I knew there was a need for it. I knew we weren't going to have a problem finding clients, but I had no idea what kind of demand there was going to be for it. So, we launched at the beginning of September and by end of November we were at complete capacity. So now we're looking at how do we expand capacity where we had to move our timeline up on hiring. And so we're completely full there and I'm basically splitting my time and I think probably I work really fast. I'm basically working two full time jobs in 40 hours a week. So yeah, it's been, it's been a full start to the year, but it's been really great.

Congratulations on the success of that! I think that that's awesome. I love the fact that that's what your podcast is called as well. You do talk about what works, and I think that's something that I love about you, like this podcast is called Brand Builders Lab because I believe that we're always in testing, trying, seeing what happens mode because the market is just changing all the time. That the minute you kind of go, “Oh yeah, I've totally got this sorted”, then things change and you've got to work it out again. So I also love that you talk about being a recovering experts.
So what have been the stages that you've gone through in your journey along the way?

Yeah. So that's a phenomenal question. When I started, so I started over 11 years ago now, I started as a blogger. And so a lot of my process at that time and the way I was showing up the brand, the personal brand that I was building was as someone who was working these things out, paying attention, and then sharing what I was learning. The way a lot of people start out. And it's a phenomenal way to start out. You know, sharing your learning journey is just, it's such a great way to connect with people and communicate with people and just start building your personal brand and saying, this is what I'm interested in. This is what I'm learning as my specialty is my skill. And so that's really where I started. And in that process I started to notice that I was, that my skills and my awareness and what I was paying attention to were starting to quickly outpaced my audience.

And when that happens, you're no longer just the student sharing your learning journey. Now you are someone who people go to learn from. You're someone who is thought of as an expert who is thought of as a teacher, a trainer or a coach. And so that was sort of the next step in my journey was starting to really own the fact that I had something to teach, something to share and that people could really benefit from coaching with me as well, that I could have conversations with people where we could move their ideas forward. We could rewrite stories, we could bust through assumptions and we could apply strategy and tactics all along the way. And so that was, that was sort of the meat of my journey, I would say. And throughout that, I mean there were other little steps where it really moved further and further away from the coach or consultant role and much more into the expert role and the trainer role.

So, you know, you mentioned creative live at the beginning. You know, when I'm on the creative live stage, I'm very much a teacher and trainer, an expert that people are looking to for answers. And that's great. And I love teaching and I love sharing what I know. And I also have a real passion for people learning from each other because I can never have all the answers. And like you said, the market's always changing. And as much as I might be paying attention, there's things I miss because no one, no one has all of the answers. And so I started to notice that that passion for having people connect with each other and having people really share what was working for them. And, and kind of highlighting that peer to peer learning style was starting to become in conflict with the way my brand was being represented, the way people were interacting with my brand because people were looking to me as the person with the answer.

And so that started to really feel out of alignment and out of integrity. And I didn't want to capitalise on a reputation that I didn't actually believe in. Because for as much as I know and as much experience as I have, and as much as I'm attention, I am not actually an expert. I'm not the person with all the answers. And I don't, I don't want to sell something based on the premise that I am. Okay. So that's when I, that's kind of what led to this latest understanding of how I want to show up and how I want to lead. And so it was a matter of sort of shedding that experts a brand peace and the teacher and trainer piece and even the coach and consultant piece and step fully into being a community leader and a community builder. And so in the last three years, that's really been the work that I've been doing.

And it's, you see it on the podcast, you see it in our community, you see it in even our higher end programmes like the masterminds that we put on. There is no hierarchal learning happening in those programmes. There's not me saying, this is how you do this, this is how you do this. There's no resource library in our community. There's no modules for people to go through. It's all about facilitating conversation and get, getting people to be vulnerable with what they share. Getting people to be transparent with what they share. And just having really honest conversations about what's working, what's not, how we're thinking about it, how we're approaching it. And me being as much a member of that community as I am a leader. And so that's been a real, that's been a real learning journey for me to figuring out how to show up that way and figuring out how other people do or do not see that as valuable and really be learning to be okay with some people saying, you know, that's not for me.

I want someone to tell me what the answers are. Cool. This isn't for you. I'm not for you. But I really, really it's, it's been so fulfilling stepping into that new understanding of who I can be within my business and within the community that I lead and the, and the audience, you know, that we're constantly trying to grow. Awesome. And so do you feel like that format still sits within the mastermind that you've created as well, where they're all learning from each other rather than, which I think happens anyway, but rather than you kind of being the teacher or the leader in that? Yes, absolutely. So it's actually something that, it's something we put on our sales page. It's something we put on our welcome materials. It's something that I start off sessions with, you know, reminding people that I am not here to tell people what to do. And also reminding them that they're also not here to tell people what to do. I'll get to that in a second. But you know, I explain on a regular basis, my role is as a facilitator, I am here to help you speak, talk to each other and learn from each other. And I'm here as a seat at the table. So in all of the masterminds

We lead, it's not like I don't share what I know. It's not like I don't share my experience, but I do it from a place of here's what I've done in the past. Here's how I'm doing it. Now. Here's how we work it with clients in our other company. Here's what I've seen in the market. Instead of saying you should do this or you should do that. In fact, both in our masterminds and in our community, we have a no advice policy. So we ask people nicely to not shut all over each other. Right? So don't tell people what they should do. You can speak from your experience, you can speak from your expertise. So you can speak from your observation, but you can't tell people what to do. And because of that, the culture that we have inside of the what works community and all of the masterminds we run is one of a lot of mutual respect, a lot of openness and honesty and just people willing to share things that they would never share in a platform where they thought they were going to get loads of unsolicited advice.

I was listening to a podcast that you had recently where you got somebody else to interview you, which I love. I think I listened to it twice actually. I will find it and I'll put it in in the show notes so that I would highly recommend you go listen to it. And it was somebody, well they would just saying, do you find it easy for you to bring your questions or not issues, but the things you need help with to the table, which is sort of said that's something that you're still working on. And I have to be honest, I do struggle a little bit with that as well. I've got a couple of very trusted business friends where we share a lot very openly. But yeah, I think that it is that element of kind of being a leader and I'm very open that I'm constantly learning. I don't know it all, but I think, yeah, when you kind of got your group to kind of go, so I need help with this is a difficult thing to kind of put out there. So how are you finding that? Is that still something?

So that interview aired in October, but my did it I think in July. So it was before we had launched Yellow House Media. And so one thing that's been really fascinating about launching the second company is that I feel more like a member of my own community now than ever before. I have zero problem posting. And what in the what works network a guys, we have a serious client communication problem. Like what are you using to communicate with your clients all in one place, right? Like I have zero. That is a literal thing that I posted back in December, you know, and, and had a bunch of other service based businesses say here's how we do it, here's how we used to do and here's why it's in a work.

Here's how we do it now. So helpful. And so, you know, now I can go and apply all of those things. One thing that's been nice too with that is with yellow house media, it's so much more representative of our average members type of business. We have a lot of service based businesses in our membership. So my questions are really helpful to them and I know that my questions are really helpful for them. If I were to go in there and ask questions about you know, things that we're thinking about in terms of our community or working with our team on the community side, it has much more of a potential to influence people in a way that I don't think is helpful for them. So you know, because I am still a leader, I am still an influencer. I am still somebody who people look to for like, Oh well if Tara's doing it then maybe that's something that I should do too.

And mostly I want people to know they should not try to run a business like what works. And so I tried to, while I will, I certainly will talk about how we do things and why we do things the way we do. I'm less likely to talk about the inner workings of what works inside the, what works network. I'm and much more likely to talk about the inner workings of yellow house media, both the, both the successes and the warts and the failures and the oopsies. And so I'm, I'm fine with that openness, but it's been interesting now to have a lens through which that openness is truly helpful to our community and a lens where I don't have to feel like the expert because I'm not, this is not the kind of business that I'm an expert in. Although I have learned in this process, I'm actually pretty good at it.

I love that. I love it. Yeah. That's so good. I mean, other thing I wanted to talk about, was around imposter syndrome and comparison. Cause I'm all about building bold brands. I always say if you really want to like stay in the shadows or you don't really want to stand out, then I'm not the person for you. And so I feel like imposter syndrome and comparisonitis two of the really big things that holds a lot of my clients, my audience, my list is my community back because they don't feel like they're an expert enough or they know enough. And then they comparing themselves to others. So firstly, is that something that you've had to deal with and now moving into this new phase of business and your mindset around the fact that yeah, I know a lot, but I'm still working this out. Does that sort of, I guess combat the imposter syndrome and comparisonitis thing?

So I have definitely dealt with imposter complex in my life and in my work. And I've definitely done a lot of work around that. I would say comparisonitis is probably like way my biggest I am an overachiever. I am extremely goal oriented. Like if someone else has achieved something, what that tells me is that my work is not done until I have also achieved that. Right. there's like, it's like I'm just looking in a mirror. So I, I work on that literally every day. Just because someone else has accomplished something does not mean it needs to go on my to do list. Right. So I definitely deal with that and I actually believe a lot in looking at other people and, and you know, as a community builder and as someone who says, let's talk about what we're doing in our businesses, I think it's really important for me to be comfortable looking at what other people are doing.

That's part of my job. I mean, it's, I interview people every week just like you do on what they're doing, how they're doing it. And if I were constantly being laid out by comparisonitis, I'd have a serious problem because, yeah, I mean, I want to talk to people who are just as successful or more successful than I am. That's kind of the point of the show, right? So anyhow, I digress. Imposter complex, my friend Tanya guys are, is a real expert in the imposter complex. And one of the things that she talks about as a sort of reaction, Oh, or a symptom of impostor complex is diminishment. And diminishment is, you know, just constantly say or you're not saying to yourself saying to others, Oh, you know, I did, I did that, but it's, it's, you know, it's not that big a deal or I'm not really that smart or I'm not really that good at these things.

And that's definitely probably the piece of impostor complex that I struggle the most with. So even doing an interview like this, like I have to remind myself that Tara, it's okay if you brag about being good at something or saying, “Yeah, I did this and it was awesome”. Cause that's kind of the point of the interview and it is kind of what, you know, it's why you're here and it's why people are listening. They want to hear how you did that. And diminishment doesn't serve anyone. It doesn't serve me and it doesn't serve you or your listeners. So there's, there's that piece. And then I think kind of the, the point of the journey, I think where I'm at with imposter complex and comparison, itis is recognising that me sharing something that feels vulnerable, me sharing something that is Mmm. That feels like, Oh God, if I share this, people are going to think that I'm not good enough.

They're going to think I'm a fraud. They're going to think I'm not as successful as I as I want them to think I am. The being willing to share that is like, that's, that's the bar for actually creating community and creating relationships and connection and getting other people to share. And so in this last year I have really, really worked on getting okay with and even leaning into sharing what's hard for me and sharing what I'm working on and not saying, Oh, I worked on this and now I have it figured out. But literally this guys, this is something I'm struggling with every day and I thought you might be struggling with it too. And so I just wanted to let you know, I am also struggling with it. There's no answer, there's no solution. There's no there's no next step. It's just this is where I'm at right now.

I mean, we can talk about it, but this is where I'm at. And once they end the response, Oh my God, like I'm just completely new levels of relationship with people and connection with people. Floods of comments, floods of email response. Like it doesn't matter where I share it, there's a flood of responses back. Last April I shared how I owed taxes or I didn't owe taxes for the first time in 10 years because I'd actually made less money the year previous and I was getting a refund and Holy crap, that was really weird. But also hard to share and I can't tell you how many people said, one I respect you for sharing that. And to last year was hard on me. Two or two years ago was hard on me and I bounced back and you'll bounce back to you know what else have I shared?
Just, Oh, just so many random things. I've just really gotten in the habit of if I am processing something, if I'm trying to work on something, but to do that publicly because the more I do it publicly, the more other people are willing to do that same thing, whether it's in our community, in a mastermind group or on my Instagram feed. And there's, sorry, I don't mean to digress on this, but this is like so important to me. There's this book called the art of gathering by Priya Parker. And this book has been just kind of super transformational for me in how I think of myself as a leader and how I think of building community and kind of building gatherings, in my case, digital gatherings. And she's talking more about actual like parties and events and, and meetings and things.

But at one point in the book, she talks about how I'm a mentor of hers, told her that his job at the beginning of every meeting or event was to share a story that was a few steps further then where he wanted the rest of the sharing to go because he knew that as the leader, if he didn't set that example, no one else would feel safe enough to do it and, and they were never going to match his level of vulnerability. So he needed to be willing to go a few steps further so that people could come close to meeting him where he was at to come close enough with what they were willing to share in, in that time. So that it was really productive. And so I've really taken that lesson to heart, whether, again, whether it's in our community, in our mastermind, on my Instagram, wherever I'm sharing, I want to make sure that I'm open to a level that invites people in with me into the deep end of the pool, which is the example that they use in the book.

And it's, that that has been, that has completely changed the way I show up in meetings and events and just in our community as a whole on the podcast. And I'd seen it change the way other people show up so that every meeting we have, every conversation we have is that much more helpful. [inaudible] And do you feel like through the iterations of your business, you've changed your community? Do you feel like who you're attracting and what you're attracting has changed over time from sort of going from the expert now to the community later? Is it a different audience and a different conversation? Well, it's different conversation obviously. Yeah. I mean, funny enough, it really hasn't changed. There was, there was a period right at the beginning of my business where I was, I originally started blogging around a physical product. So I was talking mostly to makers and artists and illustrators and designers.

And I stopped talking about that cause it wasn't something, it wasn't the kind of business I was ever going to build. And I became really interested in digital products based businesses and service based businesses. And so I, I made that pivot very early on, but ever since then, my audience has really not changed. The people who show up haven't changed. I've certainly seen people, you know, we, we attract all different kinds, all different levels, quote unquote, different levels. So if you're thinking, whether it's revenue or years of experience or just even the types of business models that we have, but it's kind of always been that way. It's always been a diverse audience. People who are looking to be in conversation with diverse audiences. And I wouldn't want that to change. And it really hasn't it, but it has been a process of learning how to explain the changes that I'm going through and the changes the business is going through and the changes that we're making to how we help people. But always, always, always saying, this is why we're doing what we're doing. This is why we're making the changes that we're making. And that's not to say that we haven't lost people along the way or that they said, yeah, this isn't for me anymore. Both the, I would say the kind of people who are showing up really haven't changed in, in a good seven, eight years.

That's amazing because obviously now, even when you're sort of talking about vulnerability or you're talking about the things that you're finding challenging, it's just interesting that these people have seen me. Yeah. A lot of them potentially over the last sort of, you know, seven, eight, 10 years and they haven't,

That you've gone through, which I'm sure is. Yeah, super interesting for them to watch that journey as well. Yeah. I was having a conversation this week with a woman in one of our mastermind groups who was concerned about leaving people behind in her community. And I told her that one of the things that I've realised about that, cause I, I've certainly had those complaints or you know, the complaints where people say, well, you know, you've changed or you don't get me anymore. Sorry, you changed. But one of the things that I've recognised is that as, as experts and as leaders, we're very quick to share the how to, of what we're doing, right? We share all of the external pieces. This is how I'm doing what I'm doing. What we don't share is the internal struggle that goes along with it. We don't share the stories that we're rewriting.

We don't share the assumptions that we're busting through. We don't share those moments of self sabotage, those moments of questioning ourselves, those moments where we say, I don't know if I'm good enough to do this. And that one thing I have learned is when I do share that internal struggle, everyone's willing to come along with me. If I skip that, that's when people feel left behind. If I share that internal struggle and I'm sharing things that, you know, maybe be able, maybe people aren't ready for yet, maybe they are kind of further you know, toward the beginning of their journey, they still can say thank you for blazing a trail for me or thank you for providing sort of a, a bread. You know, the breadcrumbs that I can follow, I'm not very yet, but I appreciate you sharing your story and it's, it's a subtle difference, but I think the results of it is really incredibly different.

I think it'd be, it's because you're then seeing like if we don't share that, then it's a little bit untouchable. It's like all this perfection and she's got it all sorted and she's, there's no issues there. Last week or a few weeks ago on the podcast, I had listeners submit questions and I just answered questions. And one of them was, I know that you, you're

Going to be doing big things. How do you deal with that? And I did talk about the stories and you know, really digging deep into like, why am I not willing to do what I want to? Well, why am
I holding back and that and the feedback on that was amazing. And I don't always share that, which is, you know, it's so true. So I think that that is something I will be taking away a little bit more from this podcast from you is to share that internal because I feel like I go through it and I think about it, but I don't really always think about sharing that. Right. And I think that that's an important thing as well. And so last year I led a really big lesson, which you probably learned a long time ago, but there's going to be all news for you. But it was new for me, which was to really focus on the one thing. I just had like 10, 10 things going on and, and they were all kind of doing while here and there. But like now I had just had no energy or space or capacity to do any one thing really well.

That was one of my biggest lessons in business – that I have just kind of, you know, have to grow and change. Like is there anything that's was kind of a bit of a, a lightning bolt moment for you at any time? I mean, I don't mean to copy you, but it is really that same lesson. Seriously. I can remember putting together a million dollar plan for a coach. I was working with at the time, this was many years ago and this plan had 10, 12 different offers on it. I don't know why she, she, I think she did gently say this, but I think she could've probably said it a little more harshly.

She should have told me, Tara, what the hell are you thinking? Mess. And you need to go back to the drawing board. And honestly I think that that moment was, was a real inflexion point in my business because I didn't go back to the drawing board. I tried to make it happen and it failed miserably. And yeah, focusing on one thing and now I talk about it in terms of steadfast commitment.

Now this is, I turned 37 in September and I said, this is my year of steadfast commitment. If I am not willing to fully commit, and go all in on something, I'm not doing it. It's not worth it. It's too much of a distraction. And so now I, I look at everything in terms of that idea of steadfast commitment. What am I steadfastly committed to today? What am I willing to go all in on? And so over the last couple of years, it's been going in on our podcast and going all in on our community. This year it's going all in on our masterminds. So we've been running masterminds for years and years, but they've always been kind of off to the side. Like there are thing that we do. There are thing that I enjoy, I always enjoy them, but they've just been over there to the side this year. We've put them front and centre and they're already going so much better than they've ever gone before. It's so amazing.

I was about to say amazing what happens when you put things front and centre and then with the podcast business, cause I know what people are thinking. They're like, sure that sounds still like a lot of things but trust me it is, it is as because so with what works, everything revolves around the same value proposition. So even if that value proposition is expressed in a couple of different ways, the, the commitment is to that value proposition into the structure that we build to deliver on that value proposition. And so, and, and we've spent time building out each of the pieces of it with the podcast production agency. We originally thought we were going to do sort of a mix of production and some strategy work with clients. And we've realised that really we need to go all in on production. That's what people are showing up for. That's what they want. And, and that's where the money is. So that's great too.

We are going to build something else out with that later in the year. But mostly, yeah, we're just, we are committed to that one thing. And when I'm committed to that one thing, not only do I make more money, but I feel so much better. I know what I'm supposed to be doing on a day to day basis. It doesn't mean my agenda's not full to brimming. It always is. But I know that each task on that list is moving me closer to my goal. It's moving the business forward and it's productive. It's all productive work. I think that when we're scattered and we've got, you know, a hundred different things going on, a lot of that work is, it may not look like busy work on paper, but when it comes to actual results, it's busy work. And I don't do busy work. I don't do work. That doesn't mean anything that I'm not in school anymore. Thank you. I don't do that. I don't work for other people anymore. I don't do that. So I need to know that everything on my to do list is moving things forward. And I think focusing on that one thing is the only way to do that.

Love it. Awesome. Yay. Just like seriously, last year I was just like, how did I not put two and two to get out? Like seriously. And I think I'd even read the book, the one thing
Before I like my, I'm just like, Sue's learn quicker, go learn quicker. Yeah. Well I mean it makes sense, right? You're like more products equals more money, more social media channels equals more followers, more opt-ins equals more newsletter subscribers. But it is the exact opposite of the truth. It's the exact opposite. It is, it is one of the biggest sort of logical fallacies in all of business.

Yeah. And I actually, I just hired a social media person to help with some re-purposing of content. And I said to her, I started the brand build his lab Instagram page last year because I saw somebody else that had a podcast page and now I'm just like, why? Why did I do that? Like it's just, that was such a mistake.

So now the distraction is another thing. But anyway, so yeah, so I would just love to ask you a question around building your brand. And the strategy that you have for building your brand? Like is that something that you, like, do you have planning sessions for your year? Do you sort of think about like what are we going to do to build the brand? Or does it just kind of happen with everything that you've got going on? Like, is it, I guess thought around that? Well, I mean we do a lot of planning. I don't think our planning would fall under brand-building so much, but then everything can fall into brand building. Right? So so yes. We put a lot, I would say our brand building process and my brand building process has always been, so whether I'm talking about my personal brand or the brand of our company companies it's very iterative.

So I'm always looking for how do we make this better? How do we make this stronger? How do we make it clearer to people what we stand for, who we're for, what we're all about. And so we do definitely do that on a planning level. We, you know, we think about what kind of content we're going to be putting out. We think about what kind of stories we want to tell. We think about how we want to involve our community in our brand building. And yes, is it kind of, my planning happens on I guess three different levels. It happens on a, on a weekly basis where I'm, I'm checking in with myself and where the business is at as well as having a meeting with my team every week. It happens on a quarterly basis where we're looking at the quarters plans and like what all needs to happen in the next three months. And then it happens on an annual basis too. We don't really have separate meetings for all of those things, but we're certainly addressing how we're moving forward on each of those different levels.

You're going to do new and more often, how are we going to enhance, yeah. Going back to, to what we were just talking about, right? Like we've learned how awful new can be and, and we've learned, you know, we've learned that the more new things that we add in the crazier and more confusing things get. So, so yes, we're kind of looking at like, what's the next stage of this? What's the, how do we make this better? How do we enhance this? And, and that is a very iterative, very cyclical process that kind of get plan gets planned more organically. Does that answer the question? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. I just always love to sort of know how people think about it. Like, I think that we do a lot of business strategy planning for the year. Like, what are we gonna offer?

What's it gonna look like? A marketing plan or the rest of it. It's just like I said this thing like where like how do I want to position my brand this year? Is it different? Is it the same? Are we shifting? Are we moving? Are we positioned in the right place to attract the type of people that we want? Like those sorts of things, which I love to sort of say what businesses are doing, but so no, that definitely answered the question. That's great. Thank you. And I'm just going to take a little bit of a 10 now. And I wanted to talk about money. Yeah. One of the articles that you published, I think it was on medium, was cold. Stop trying to charge what you're worth. And I shared it everywhere. Like I was like, Oh my gosh, and I love these because I think that we are very much in our whole world of charge your worth, know your worth, all that sort of stuff.

And these two may really spoke to me. So do you want to just give us a quick synopsis or snapshot of what that message was? And then I would love to know what made you brighter. Yeah. so like you said, I mean, we live in a culture that is constantly telling us to charge what we're worth, to know our worth. And I don't agree with that. I think that's really bad business advice. And I don't actually think that advice is geared to business owners. That advice is geared to freelancers. It's geared to a gig workers, it's geared to employees. And for those people it's a little bit more valuable. Still think it's got advice for a business owner. If you are charging what your worth, you're conflating yourself and the business. And this is like to get back to imposter complex. This is one of our, our biggest hangups as business owners is this conflation of those two things. I am not my business and I am very careful to talk about me and my business separately.

When I'm talking about me, I'm talking about me. When I'm talking about the business, I'm either saying the business, the company or we and, and I, I leave those things very separate. I want people to know that they're priceless. I want people to know that they have inherent value. As an Enneagram three, this is a lesson I'm still learning myself by the way, but I want people to own their value, own their worth based on the fact that they're a human being, right? Our work is not the measure of our value and we shouldn't price it as if it is the work has its own value and it has a value in the market that is completely separate from our value as human beings. And the more we can see our work as separate from us, the more open we are to all the different kinds of ways we can price it.

Because there are, there is like the, the, the full breadth of what you can charge in any industry for any kind of work. Massive. If you go looking for someone who's charging 10 times what you're charging, they're out there. You go looking for someone who's charging 10th of what you're charging. They're out there. And there are, there are successful businesses at both ends of, of, of the market. And so I think the more, like I said, the more we separate what our work is worth from ourselves, the more open we are to actually checking those things out and saying, Oh, someone else is getting 10 times a hundred times what I'm charging right now. What does it take to do that? What kind of clients do I need to go after? How do I need, you know, how do I need to position this work so that I can charge that price if you want to it, it creates a lot more flexibility than saying, well, I have to charge X because that's what I'm worth.

Right. so there's that. I also think that this idea of charging what you're worth [inaudible] there is a, there's almost an operational component to it as well where if I am worth X and I'm chargingX , then I can't hire someone else to do that same work and still charge X. And I see this, I see people do this all the time. Well, you know, I'm the senior consultant, so I make, I make this amount of money and I hired somebody junior to me. They're doing the same work, but I only charge Y for them. No, you charge X and you make a profit on that person's work. That's how business works. Yeah. So, so when you're charging what you're worth, you also have a capacity and operational capacity problem as well because you're not going to, you're not going to be able to outsource that work.

So to get to the last part of your question, sorry, that was a complete digression. The reason I wrote the article was because I saw how much that advice was, was hurting people not just hurting them from a business perspective, but it was causing pain. Right? People were trying to figure out what am I worth? And trying to put a price tag on it. And that's ridiculous. It is so much more objective than that. Pricing doesn't have to be this thing that you wring your hands about. It doesn't have to be an existential crisis. Pricing is a pretty simple formula of looking at the market, seeing what other people are charging, calculating your expenses, what you need to make per hour, and actually understanding what you, what the market will bear or in terms of that price and how your business model requires you to price your work. And when you do that you can say, Oh, I know exactly what I need to charge.

Yeah. It's a commercial decision, not a personal value decision. Yes. Very well put. I talk about it all the time. I always credit you, I'm like, you've got to go write this article. We don't charge what we wear. We are commercial. Yeah. Business. So I love that. And I would love to end on something that I have watched you evolve with over the last maybe couple of years. And I've watched in amazement as I watch your Instagram videos of you climbing what seems like upside down on rock climbing walls and all the rest of it. Just like how is she doing that?

But you've really been on a journey to get fit and strong and really focused on your how, which is something that I am really focused on this year. I recently read atomic habits, which has kind of changed my whole thought process around the way I do things in the way that I make a commitment to myself.

And my dog, that's who I take help. Yeah. And so I just want to know what kind of spurred that on or what was, what was the catalyst for that and what has your mindset shift from where you were to now?

What initially inspired the change was I was at a low points personally and business wise where, you know, things were going well from the outside. I had a great life. I was making tonnes of money. I had a great business and at the same time I felt a tonne of inner turmoil and I felt a tonne of just kind of pointlessness. It was right the 2016 Election here in the United States. So there was just a lot of that in ether. There are so many people I know, especially women my age who made huge life changes in December, 2016. I think 10, 15 years from now it'll be really interesting to see what my generation and ed specifically the women are doing. Cause it's going to be incredible. It already is. But I did rest again. I looked around at the people who seemed, who I knew, not just from the outside how to together, but people I had talked to, people I was friends with and I started to look at like what is different about their businesses? What is different about the way they approach life? What is, what are they doing that I'm not doing? Why are they happening beer than I am? And one of the things that kept coming up was this habit of movement, this discipline of, of fitness, not the, you know, not all of them were like athletes, but they were doing something to take care of themselves on a daily or weekly basis.

Some of them were Yogi, some of them were CrossFitters, some of them were runners. And I was like, Oh, okay, I don't want to do this, but I'm going to do this and I'm going to see what it feels like. I am going to see what it feels like to start working this habit. So I did, I started with like 10 minutes before coffee on the treadmill every morning just walking like I, cause I wasn't running at that point. And then that felt good and I started doing it a little bit more in a little bit more. And then I started running. And then I took a trip out to Montana, which is one of my happy places. It's my favourite place on, on earth. And had some outdoor experiences that made me think like, Ooh, yeah, I need to get even better at this.

So I could do more of this. And then came back, started climbing, started weightlifting. And from there, not only did I develop this habit and the mindfulness around my habits, cause I don't want to call it discipline cause I think we use discipline sort of in all the wrong ways. I, I developed discipline, I developed mindfulness and intention around my habits. It was a skill that I taught myself in this process. So I got all of that and that really started to transform the way I approached my business as, as I thought that it would, that was sort of the hypothesis. But then I caught the bug. I can see you caught the bug. Yeah. And so I went from like, this is fun on the average morning to two, like how far can I take this? What all are my self imposed limits?

So like last year I, you know, it was, I still remember the very first day I ran four miles straight and just realise like, Oh, you just don't stop. Right? Like, cause to me running a mile straight was flabbergasting let alone four miles straight. So the last year I signed up for a half marathon and crushed my first half marathon. This year my plan is to do a marathon. Three years ago I couldn't do, I had never done a single pull up in my life today at the gym, I regularly do 30 to 40 pull ups in, in a day. Not all at once, but in a, in a set, in a, in a, in a workout, I will do a total of 30 to 40. The climbing thing. Yeah. I don't know what's going on there, but I love it and I'm obsessed with it and I just do it as much as I possibly can.

But it has been, I have learned so much from getting fit, from getting back to being an athlete, to getting back to being a competitor. Even if I'm just competing with myself. I've learned so much about running my business. I've learned so much about myself as a human being. And I have absolutely achieved that level of happiness and fulfilment that I could see in other people. I've achieved it for myself and I would highly recommend doing, if not the same thing, something similar to anyone who is listening and wondering what the difference is as well.

Amazing. Well congratulations. That's so cool to say cause yeah, the woman I saw on creative live five years ago and the woman I see on Instagram now, I'm like, ah, very different.
It's awesome. But I also think that just acknowledging that there is a lack of happiness or a lack, there's something lacking and going and looking for what that is and making those changes I think are huge. And I feel like last year was financially a good DFMA but I just felt like really crappy. Like myself, I'm not unhappy but just not healthy. So I'm just like, you know something, I kind of feel like, you know, I've got the happiness, I've got the, the business is going well. I need to like get the trifecta. I need to be like healthy, healthy and wealthy. I feel like was that marae folios thing.

Whoa. Wealthy and happy or something. Anyway, happy and hot.

I'm glad she dropped that. So good. So good. Tara, thank you so much.

THINGS MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

• The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker

LINKS

• Website