This podcast episode is going to be a bit different – it’s the start of a new series where I’ll be bringing people who I think have got bold and powerful voices to the podcast. If you’ve followed me for some time, you know that my purpose is to support women to become bold and powerful voices in their industry and claim their space with confidence.

I love sharing actionable strategic steps and tips with you, but sometimes I want to have deeper conversations. I want to have conversations that talk about the things that maybe sometimes we're scared to talk about, or sometimes we're afraid to talk about or that, you know, we want to be braver to do. That why I wanted to share this with you.

Today, I have got Denise Duffield-Thomas, money mindset coach, on the podcast.  Now Denise has been on the podcast before – she was actually one of my very first guests! Denise has got a community of Money Bootcampers, which I have been part of for four or five years now.

Denise is somebody who I find funny and insightful and brave. Recently she decided to draw a line in the sand on her Facebook page and Instagram to talk about what she will tolerate and what she won't. And so that's what we're going to be talking about today. I really wanted to bring you this episode, which is more like a coffee and conversation episode, to inspire you and to challenge you and to open up the conversation about what we're willing to do and what we're not willing to do in our business. And can I just say like Denise and I talk about in this conversation and in this episode, it's not easy for anybody. It takes courage. And there's the hangover afterwards of feeling either shame or “should I have done that…”, but at the end of the day, we are values based businesses. We want to be advocates. We want to be bold and powerful voices. We don't just want to talk about the things that we do in our business as but we want to have meaningful conversations about how we impact not only our clients, but the world around us. And so that's the kind of conversation I want to share a little bit more on this podcast as well.

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TRANSCRIPT

So I have asked a number of incredible people to tee up some times for us to have a chat about some of the things that they're doing in their space, so that I can amplify their voices, but also have conversations around, you know, why do you do that? Why do you speak about those things and where do you find the courage? And what's the response been and all of that sort of thing.

I feel like it totally aligns with my purpose and what I'm here to do to not only help you build a profitable business without the burnout, but also to have a bold and powerful voice as well. So without further ado, we're just going to dive straight into this episode because jeez, it is juicy. And if you enjoy it, I would love you to share it. Absolutely so that we can open this conversation up more and more people can talk about these kinds of topics and just a warning. There is adult language, a lot of adult language in these podcast episodes. So if you've got little ones around, make sure that you get your headphones in or maybe just listen to it when you're on your own. But I know you're going to love it.

I’m excited to have you here today because we are going to be talking about bold and powerful voices. And I saw you step up in a really big way in the last week. And I was so keen to talk to you about this. So, you basically did a post on your Facebook page, which was drawing a line in the sand around what you're going to tolerate and allow in your space:

Hey friends – line in the sand time.

This won’t apply to 95% of the people here. But for some people – it’s really time for us to part ways.

I cannot emphasise enough. I am not here for your entertainment. I owe you nothing. I’m not here for your conspiracy theories or Covid denial.

I’m not here for your “both sides”. I’m utterly disgusted by your support of Donald Trump (or where you pretend you’re an impartial observer).

I’m not here for your “love and light” version of white supremacy. I’m not here for your QAnon nonsense. It’s boring and stupid and I don’t have to allow it in my space.

Let me be really blunt and clear.

I’m not Sesame Street on a public access channel. Nobody is entitled to my time, attention, or creativity. You don’t get to benefit from my work. No soup for you.

If you don’t leave, I will ban you.

If you harass my community or team, I will ban you.

If you tell me to “wake up”, I will ban you.

You can sit in your passive-aggressive anger, sadness, and disappointment of me. You can bitch about me. But I don’t have to listen to it in MY SPACE.

There’s no boss or manager you can complain to. The buck stops with me.

The action you can take – easily and for free – is to unfollow, unsubscribe and block me. Never support my work again. Add me to your “sheeple” list.

I don’t want you to lurk. I never want to accidentally amplify your work. I don't appreciate your perspective or point of view.

* But I’m a customer – you can’t talk to me like that.

When you buy from me, you buy that thing from me. You don’t buy ME.

I’m glad you loved my book. It doesn’t mean I have to allow you into my space. Burn my book if you feel strongly about it. If you’re a Bootcamper, I will hold space for you IN THAT GROUP.

But if you bought the course 6 years ago, or yesterday, my values are not up to you. If you’ve been around long enough, you have probably received your value. Our time together might be done.

So what triggered you to write this work?

You know, like for five years now, I've been watching what's happening in America and it impacts us in Australia too. When things happen in America, things happen here. So I've just been watching it and I've been really trying to be okay with people but I just got to the point where I was like, I'd be a hypocrite to take your money.  I thought of it like that point of view of like, “Oh, I'm not gonna take your money anymore”. But then I was like, “Hang on, I've got a value here too. You don't get to be in my space”.  What inspired me was reading a post by a lady called Design Mum.

And she was like, “I don't create my content for you”.  I just thought I'm just done with this.  I love to talk about the fallout from this because I've seen people do call out posts, you know? And I didn't mention one particular person. I've seen people do it over the last couple of years and I've gone, “Oh my God, that's so brave”.  I don't want to people off. I don't want to make people feel bad about their choices. I watched all of the elections this week and I was just like, I want a better world for everybody. Even people who don't want a better world for everybody.

There was this one lady who contacted me and she goes, “Denise, I'm sending this to you in the most amount of love possible.” And I was like, Oh God, here it goes. And then she's like, “I love you. I love everything you do. I love your Money Bootcamp, I love you.”

And I was waiting for the “but” and she didn't do it! And I think that's why it was even harder because she was like, I believe 100% percent in your perspective, I believe 100% in my perspective, can we both be right? And it was so shocking because there was never a but, and so it was really hard because I was like, wow, she believes that Donald Trump is a really good person. Like she believes it to her core. And it's discombobulating. I think this world that we live in at the moment, because there's very little shared sense of right or wrong right now. And I think for some of us and where that hit me is I know I've got like, I hate hurting people's feelings. I really freaking do it. When Rachel Rogers did do a call-out post about Marie Forleo and B-School, I was like “Oh my God”.

I was like, I never want Marie to feel bad about it – it’s so hard. And you know, I think she's in her right to say it. And then I felt this way about this lady. I was like, Oh my God, I feel so unkind that she believes deep to her core that she is right. I had to reach out to some friends. Cause I was like, I know that I'm also the kind of person who goes, hang on, am I the bad guy in, in everything. Right. And you know, if you've been someone who does take response over responsibility for me, I was like, maybe I am the bad person. And I had to like talk to a few people and they're like, oh no, baby – she's just, gas-lighting you.

I think the line that you drew was really, this is my space you choose to be here. I'm going to be upfront about what I believe. And if you don't believe that, and you're not okay with the things that I say, then it's fine for you to leave. And I think that drawing that line has been a big thing.  Did you and Mark talk about it?  What did you think about before you decided to put it out there? I guess from a business perspective as well.

Of course we had these discussions. Mark is my husband – he's my business partner now as well since I brought him into the business about three years ago.

There was a part of me that checked my bank account. How much savings have we got? Just in case, just in case this ruins our business. And it's ridiculous because it is only about 5% of my audience.

I feel like that's not something that you would usually have to deal with.

I'm going to say this really honestly, openly – I'm a self-made millionaire. I've got a million dollars cash in the bank right now. Like it's,  not going to harm me. The average person is worried about alienating their clients – of course they are. And that's a hard position for women to be in. And what I try and remember is when I was growing up, my mum had running away money.  A lot of moms had some cash stacked away because maybe they didn't have their own bank accounts. Maybe they didn't have that. And the thing that I've gone through this week, it's really not going to impact me in my life.   I want people to have financial security so they can go, you know what, if I lose half my clients, I'm going to be okay.

I want people to have money in the bank. I want people to have that because sometimes you don't have the luxury or you feel like you don't have the luxury to talk out. You feel like you don't have the luxury to really, truly live your values and you feel beholden to people. And I still felt that's the, that's the crazy thing.  I still felt that this week of, I don't know if I'm allowed to be exposed. And then afterwards I've had a roller coaster afterwards. And again, it's not about me. Like, I'm going to be fine.

I think when you're a one to many business, there's going to be so many nuances within nuances of people's opinions about what you do and say, and it's really easy to second guess. Yourself.   I just wrote it. I didn't send it to anyone. I put it on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. And then Mark said, “Do you want to email this out?” And I was like, yes!

And so I got the feedback from a few people on that and they were like, “Oh my God, I thought you were breaking up with me!” because it feels more personal when it's an email to you rather than an Instagram.  So there's still like nuances. I should have said, “Hey, I've just put this on my Instagram. This is probably not for you. But I still wanted you to see it.”  I got one person that said, “I don't understand why you sent this to me. Is this a spam? Like, have you been hacked?” And I was like, no, no, no. And she goes, “Why are you telling me your disappointment?” And I was like, are you a Trump supporter? She goes, no. And I said, well, that's not really for you.

And so what has the fallout been? Has there been any fallout?

Not really. I mean, I don’t look at the stats – I'm sure we got on some unsubscribes. I think Mark said we got about a hundred unsubscribes, but we do from any email.

I don't usually do a lot of speaking gigs, but I'm doing one soon for Freshbooks and I remember thinking, “Oh God, what if they say they don't want me on their panel anymore!” And there was a part of me – that’s the good girl – that was like “Oh, it’s 2 gramd.  Like if they want, they can have their money back. They don't own me because they, you know, I'm on their panel.”

And also if they came back and they had a problem with you saying that, they're probably not a business that you potentially want to be speaking for anyway.

Actually we just had the speaker prep and were like “I'd appreciate it if you don't say “Trump” on our webinar, but you can totally talk about politics”.

I don't think everybody needs to do things like this because I think everyone's got their own limit.  When you  do you have a bit of a platform, I think people do want to know your opinion on stuff. And I struggle with that sometimes because I'm like, can you give me a moment to research that – is that something I really need to care about or have an opinion about?

I think that when you do kind of get to that stage in your business where you've got a really big platform, then you are somebody who influences.  You’re like the reason that word is around, because you influence people on a big scale.  Have you always had really strong opinions about stuff?  Was it only when the me too movement happened that you started talking about social issues, social justice, politics etc?

I was the kid who like wrote to tuna companies to ask them about dolphin nets. I think my generation were really targeted by Greenpeace in primary school.   I've been involved in organisations around social justice.  I worked in a sustainability consultancy and I would go in and out of it. And I think I didn't connect a lot of that stuff to politics for a long time, you know?  I was just like, Oh, that's just boring men's business. I was like, I don't understand how that impacts my life in a meaningful way, which was total white privilege.

And even now, whether it's a conservative government or ore of a liberal left leaning green kind of government, my life as a white wealthy woman actually does not change very much. And you know, if climate change affects where I live, I have the means to live somewhere else. I can pack up my family and then go somewhere else. But I think I've always had that sense of fairness. It's not fair that people do this and it's not fair that people do that. But that being said, I think sometimes people worry about talking about those things because they're not perfect.  I mean I’m not perfect around my activism -there's so much more I could do.  I really beat myself up about that sometimes because there's heaps more that I could do.  That being said, there's always been that spark in me for it, but connecting it to politics took a while.  It felt boring to me, it felt like men's business.

And you can see women saying that to other women too. Like we shouldn't talk about politics and I'm like, no, your grandmother wasn't allowed to talk about politics.

And we've seen so many examples of this recently where businesses that you think, how would they, why would they be put political? It's got nothing to do with them. You know, like there's an example in America. I can't remember the exact name, but it's a spice company and they came out and just went, we're totally anti Trumpism.  And Ben and Jerry's ice cream, they've always been incredibly political. So I think that this has taught me as well – because American stuff is so bold and out there, it's really easy for me to look over there and not look at what's happening in Australia every single day. And I've got friends who have called me out on that in Australia.  Because I actually donate a lot to American causes which is weird, right!

I actually hired a philanthropy coach last year because I'm a rich person and there comes responsibility with that.  I pay my taxes and all that kind stuff but am I doing the right thing with my money? He asked me a really interesting question at the start. He said, do you want to help people who have fallen off a cliff or do you want to prevent them from falling off the cliff?  Do you want your impact to be immediate helping people who are in crisis right now? Or do you want to make longer term change? That might not be immediately apparent.

I do both, but I want to be intentional about doing that. So we came up with some priority areas for me. I'm really passionate about the environment. So actually one of the organisations I started with is legal advocacy for the environment to change laws and to lobby.  And he told me that there was a Canadian philanthropist who put a lot of money into lobbying for smoke-free places like banning cigarettes and it took decades.

And then I'm really passionate about women and children. And so I donate a lot to things that are like super, super immediate, right. So providing a plastic tarp for a woman in Ethiopia to give birth. So she didn't have to give birth in dirt. The Fistula Foundation is one that I love donating to because it's practical – it's sewing up women's severe birth injuries.  So they can work and not be shunned from their villages. But then it’s like,  who are the organisations that are creating sustainable long-term staff like the long process of training doulas and nurses – it's so complex.  You start to look at all the things and go, Oh my God, there's so much we have to fix!  I’m really looking at the moment in Australia – there's a tonne of organisations, even like UK and America, that help women go into politics.

And they look at it from a long-term perspective to in 10 years time – who do we want to be running for politics in 20 years time? Who do we want in 30, 40 years time? Who do we want to be the prime minister? I haven't found as many in Australia as I have in other countries. I think there's like Born to Run in America or She Can Lead and things like that.

There's just so many causes as well. And there's so many problems to fix in the world that it's hard to choose. I mean we've been sponsoring one girl now for about four or five years, which basically stops young girls as young as 13, getting married off in Sierra Leone and keeps them in education. And also  they’ve got Business Brains, which trains young girls, how to start their own businesses.  I think it's so important to take a look at that whilst we are helping our clients to make more money or run better businesses and things like that. It's about that impact and how we can make a better impact or a bigger impact in the world as well.

And even things like Raise the Age. I learned so much about what was happening here in Australia that I didn't know about. The fact that kids as young as 10 are in prison, just broke my heart and I couldn't believe it. That was something else that we donated to and signed petitions and things like that. And there’s just been a change in the last couple of weeks where that's been moved to 14. I still think that there's a lot of issues there, but I just think that when you see something it's kind of that whole thing, when you say something, say something or do something. I don't think that we can fix all the problems, but I think that if we do what we can do and everybody did that, like the impact would just be incredible as well.

And money makes a big difference in that too. You know, like I think I was very naive about what a role, money and wealthy people play in getting laws changed. When you start to look into it – like for example, in America, they have for-profit prisons and the people who own them lobby the government to change laws so they can have more “customers” in their prisons. And so when you start to look at that, that's where I'm super passionate about having money in the hands of more women in more groups who have been traditionally oppressed or kept out of the money system, because then if, if money is going to influence staff, I want to be part of that.

I remember you saying this years ago – as wealthy women, we can change the world. The more money women have, the more it goes to their families and communities and building that. And that's kind of never left me. I just think also when we look at politics, it's only through money that these candidates can afford to run and have the platform that they've got and have all of these powerful people around them. So  at the end of the day, the more money we make, the more impact we can have, the more good we can do. And the more influence that we can have as well at, at higher levels.

Absolutely. And like, you, you look at these amazing female politicians that are coming up, like AOC in America. And she was in one of those programmes that was encouraging women and minorities to run from politics. Right. And, and so someone has funded that organisation that has burst all these amazing new, fresh politicians. And she is using these tools that we have available to us. Like, you know, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram as well.

So all these tools that have been created by men not to necessarily change the world, we can use those to kind of beat people at their own game. And I mean, yeah, it's, it's an exciting time and it's like, well, so infuriating in lots of ways.  I have the privilege of being born in Australia. I wasn't raised in a great environment, but I'm white. I've got that privilege and  it doesn't mean we have to be full-time activists, but I know I can use that privilege and I can use my wealth to try and create things.

I really appreciate being able to have this conversation too. Because I think that's what I got out of the Design Mom post – I was like, she's just saying it like she would say to a girlfriend and she's putting it on the internet. And I'm like, I have these conversations with my girlfriends – why shouldn't I have them publicly?

I think as women, sometimes we are guarded. It's like you said, at the beginning – I don't want to hurt somebody's feelings or I don't want somebody to feel alienated or rejected. And so we just don't say the things that we really want to say. And I do think that the fact that you talked to Mark about it is a good thing to do, but I also think don't hold back if you're really passionate and you feel super strongly about something, because I think that at the end of the day, if we feel really strongly about it and we don't say it, we'll regret it at some point as well – that we didn't actually speak our mind or say what we wanted to say, because we were afraid of what other people might've thought.

Oh, absolutely. And we want to raise the next generation of girls to not be afraid of that. Willow is six. She'll write Mark a letter and she'll be like, “Hey daddy, I really love you. But here's some things I want to say”, even on his birthday card!.  She’s like, “You're the best daddy in the whole world, but I've got some feedback for you”. It's so funny. But she still lives in a world that men's voices are prioritised more than women's voices. And she'll see that. But I talk about politics a lot with her and she listens to podcasts in the car. She gets it. She just kind of goes, “Oh, he's just not nice”. But I really love Elizabeth Warren who was also running for the presidency. I, in another life, I would just be her student. And just where she put her feet,

I follow Trevor Noah on Instagram from The Daily Show – I find him hilarious and interesting. There were some black men that had commented and said, Joe Biden and Obama did nothing for black men in America or for coloured people in America. I just thought that was so interesting. Obviously we say certain things and I probably don't research as much as you do. I know that a lot of your business sits in the US but I just find that stuff sort of interesting because we do have these ideas and these views of people. Obama's so cool – so smart and articulate, and I love Michelle and all the rest of it, but like you said, nobody's perfect and we don't see everything.

Even just to take a moment sometimes before jumping on bandwagons.  Like even look at all this stuff that came out about Mother Teresa.  People saying, “Oh, she got money out of keeping people sick and dying.” I was like, Oh my God, really, I need to go research that further.

So there are nuances within nuances and, it's a really tricky, weird time.  But we'll look back at this and remember it.  Things become a new normal – even phrases that we probably are using now; remembering about people's pronouns –  that was such a clumsier discussion a year ago that people are just a little bit more used to now.  Like it's no big deal.

I just want to say that yeah. When I saw your post, I almost felt like you felt with Rachel Rogers.  But the more I read it, I just thought, I do think that now is the time for us to stand up for things that are really important for us and us to claim our space with confidence.

It's my purpose. It's my vision in my business to help women become bold and powerful voices and claim their space with confidence. And I just think that I'm seeing you do it and I'm seeing other women do it. And I just think, you know, for those who are sitting and watching and kind of going, I want to be a bold and powerful voice in my industry, but I don't know how, I just think it's super interesting and a value to watch other people do it. And like you said, you don't do it perfectly. And you know, you learn as you go. But I just think actually getting out there and, and doing something and talking about it, even opening the conversation, I think is so worthwhile.

I've really appreciated people reaching out to me because, you know, as I said, I went through the roller coaster of emotions – a flight feeling, remorse, regret, shame, feeling like, Oh my God, did I go too far? I really say that that's related to me as a little girl. I was never allowed to be angry about stuff. I was never allowed to express disappointment in our circumstances because my mom would make me feel guilty about it. And so that that's what was coming up for me.

I'm so glad you came on for this chat.  I just want to have more meaningful conversations – like I love the podcast and I love giving like tips and actionable strategies, but I just want to have really deep conversations with people about what's happening in the world and in business and be braver and and take a stand. And I've really enjoyed this conversation – so thank you!

I'd really love you to let me know what you thought if you enjoyed this type of conversation. And also let me know if you think that there are people out there that you think are bold and powerful voices and doing things differently.

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