Suzanne Chadwick  00:00

Welcome to the best of 2021. We've got some replays for you. These were some of our most popular podcasts this year. And when I looked at the stats on them, I was like, Yes, I'm so glad that these were the ones that I wanted to share in this holiday season replay. Now this first one with Dr. Joan Rosenberg, I met her on clubhouse. clubhouse was the rage at the beginning of 2021. And I was obsessed with it. And I had seen her TED Talk. And then I saw her come into a room on clubhouse and I was like, get out of town. And this conversation is rich, it's deep. It's awesome. You will get so much out of it and I think it's an amazing holiday listen as well. So listen, let's dive into the best of 2021 Replay with Dr. Joan Rosenberg. All about building confidence through discomfort enjoy. Before we kick this interview off, I want to introduce Dr. Joan Rosenberg, probably to you because her bio is amazing and you need to know all the things. She is a best selling author, consultant, media expert and master clinician. She is a cutting edge psychologist who is known globally as an innovative thinker, and acclaimed speaker and trainer. As a two time TEDx speaker and the member of the association of transformational leaders. She's been recognised for her thought leadership and global influence in personal development. She's a California licenced psychologist. And she speaks on how to build confidence, emotional strength and resilience, how to achieve emotional, conversational and relationship mastery, and how to integrate neuroscience and psychotherapy and suicide prevention. Her latest book, which is 90 seconds to a life you love how to master your difficult feelings to cultivate lasting confidence, resilience and authenticity, was released in February 2019. We will have all of the links in the show notes. I got mine on Audible, she reads it and I love it. So make sure that you go check that out. But I'm super excited to share this week's episode with you. I think that you are going to love it as well. Joan, welcome to the brand builders lab podcast. 

Dr Joan Rosenberg  02:50

Well, it's a thrill for me to be here. Thank you for having me. 

Suzanne Chadwick  02:53

Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. Now for those of my audience who don't know you, I actually had watched your TED talk a while ago, which I'll have in the show notes. And then I found you in a room on clubhouse, and I was in shock. That there you were, in real life, able to answer questions and have a conversation with. And so yeah, you were talking about obviously, confidence and uncomfortable feelings and all the rest of it, which is what you specialise in. And so I was so excited to connect with you. And I thought you know, I always say my listeners know, my mum always says you don't ask you don't get. So I jumped on it. And I said, Would you be on the podcast? And I was so thrilled that you said yes.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  03:39

Absolutely. Yeah, I actually have a there's a growing audience in Australia for me so and so yeah. So it's, I'm happy to do it. And I love and I love, I love Australia and I love I just love the part of your work the world you're in. So not and it's not just the world, obviously, it's you.

Suzanne Chadwick  04:00

Thank you. So also as a giant for those of my audience, I've given them a bit of an understanding about your background a little bit. But I'd love to know, like how you got started in this because it's such a specific thing to talk about when it comes to these uncomfortable feelings that we go through and how we can have this confidence and also have a life that we really love. What was that sort of catalyst for you to jump into this type of research and work?

Dr Joan Rosenberg  04:29

Well, you know, the I would say that the truth of it is it found me before I found it. So I you know, I started out as and I talked about this in different places, but I started out as a very shy sensitive kid. And I started school early, which made me that much more vulnerable. So I was small, vulnerable, shy and sensitive. So what what does that happen? I've become the target. And so I also got bullied throughout. Again, I would say a great part of my childhood and well into my adolescence. I would say through my adolescence, and and I've suffered some adult bullying on top of it, but that's a whole different story. Wow. And, and so, and I didn't, I didn't feel like I fit in, I didn't feel like I belonged. And it's like that combo is not a great combo for a young child growing up. And, and so I would, I would look over at my peers and I'd see them gathered together, I'd see them laughing and it's like, what is it that they have? And I don't, right? It's like, I want what they have. And I knew, if I tried to go stand next to them, that I still wasn't gonna get it, it wasn't gonna happen through osmosis. Right? So it wasn't, you know, confidence isn't contagious. And so I had to figure it out. And and so the kind of the question that I wrestled with, was, I want confidence, how the heck do I develop it? Right? And that was the question that I, you know, whether it was conscious to me, or I pondered it at lower levels, it was always kind of there. And then as I, I ended up, of course, ended up in air quotes for those of you who are listening, and psychology and in so in my work as a psychologist, especially early in my professional life, it dawned on me that as difficult as our thinking can get, and, and contribute to a poor sense of well being or no sense of well being. I believe that how we handle how we actually experience and express feeling. Messes messes us up more. So, the second question that kind of emerged is what makes it so difficult for people to deal with unpleasant feelings. And, and I kept kind of going along. And as and as I will say, as the decades went by, I started to understand that the answer to the second question about unpleasant feelings, was really the foundational answer to the confidence piece. So that so that actually, in order for any one of us to feel like we have rock solid confidence, or unwavering or, you know, that kind of idea around confidence, it actually takes us being able to handle the unpleasant feeling emotional outcome, in order to feel like we're capable of handling life, the foundational piece. Now, it's not the only thing. It's the foundational piece for the you know, it's at the base for someone who wants to develop confidence. Yeah,

Suzanne Chadwick  07:44

That's amazing. And that was what really kind of got me when we were speaking on clubhouse is that I said to you, I was asking you a question about confidence. And I love how you define it, can you share with my audience that quite

Dr Joan Rosenberg  07:59

so so the way I define confidence is it's the deep sense that you can handle the emotional outcome. So think unpleasant feelings, the deep sense that you can handle the emotional outcome of whatever you face, or whatever you pursue, unfold, avoid and look at confidence in ease.

Suzanne Chadwick  08:17

And it's really interesting, because I'm just going to go back to a couple of things that you said, the first thing is, a lot of people say that confidence is contagious, and you'd literally disapproval calm. Confidence is not contagious. And so I think that the thinking behind that, I'd love to talk about it as well, is that when we're around other people who are confident and dare to do courageous things, sometimes it encourages us or spurs us on to also challenge ourselves to do that. So I think that that's where that kind of comes from what's your take on? When people say confidence is contagious? Why don't you believe that? And what are your thoughts around it?

Dr Joan Rosenberg  08:55

Because it's internal. It's not an external thing. So and but here's the beauty of it. And this is the this is the other part of it for me. And that is that there, you know, again, same thing, I mean, I'm in my early career, and I know when people need to have confidence, and and everybody else knows to and everybody says, Well, you need confidence and then go ask somebody how to develop in there and you're not gonna you're gonna have somebody go, I don't know, I don't know how to tell you that. And and therapists don't even know how to tell people that. So you know, part of the thing that boggles my mind at this point is people are out in the field. They know people want the confidence, but it's like they can't tell them how to do it. And the fact is, there is a way there in my mind, based on the work I've done now, there really is a way to tell you how to do it. So first is you got to be able to handle your unpleasant feelings. And I'm very specific I know we'll get there but I'm very specific about the number more or less and and then what that means in terms of the foundation but The reason it looks like confidence is, is contagious when a when you're doing a courageous act, and then I do a courageous act is because I'm doing the courageous act. So part of the other some of the other ways people develop confidence is and again, it's not that it's not that you're confident, and then you go do it is that you go do it, and then you get confident. Yep. Right. So taking action is one way you get confident. So So why it looks like it might be contagious is because somebody is out there actually taking action, and messing up and then going and taking more action? Well, when you do that, you actually gain confidence. And the same is true of speaking up. So it's not that I know myself, and I'm confident, and then I speak, it's actually as I speak. And through speaking, I both come to know myself better. And that's how I develop confidence. And I will tell you, that if the, if the foundation for me was not the eight unpleasant feelings I always talk about, then speaking up would be the the singular way that people will develop the most confidence.

Suzanne Chadwick  11:16

We are going to dive into the eight things I just want to ask. So with speaking up, I always say that a lot of times, the people that I work with, or my listeners or my clients, there's a lot of, I guess either imposter syndrome, or there's a lack of confidence because they're constantly listening to everybody else. It's like, you know, they've got all of these voices, they're consuming everybody else's con content. And so now they're in that comparison, and then they don't feel kind of like, you know, those that imposter, I'm not that good. And so that whole thing of listening to yourself or speaking up that, does that really come from you blocking out the noise and listening to your own voice, and finding what is unique to you to be able to share, when you talk about speaking up is that what you mean?

Dr Joan Rosenberg  12:07

When I'm talking about speaking up, I want somebody to feel like they have the ease with which to speak in any given moment they choose to. Okay. And, and but there's a caveat around this, it positive kind well intentioned. So just because you can speak does not give you the right to be malicious, or me. So it for me that those three things positive kind well intended, are part of the speaking. So which means that if I want to go to you and ask for a raise, I can go to you and ask for a raise. It also means that if I'm having a conflict with you that I can come to you as a supervisor and say, Hey, supervisor, I'm having conflict, or or I can go to my colleague, or I can go to my loved one. And with my loved one I can look at or anybody I can say you know what? That disappointed or that made me angry? Yeah, let's work. Let's work it out. And it also means I love you. And I would love to spend more time with you. Yeah. Right. So it's the whole continuum. It's not just unpleasant stuff, I want somebody to be able to say, I want to be able to say, if you're, you're pretty fun, I want to spend more time with you. Right? So it's the ability to do that as well. That's what speaking with ease means I can I can share my perspective in my truth in a way that just it allows me to be free and connected, authentic and genuine. And that's what allows us to be authentic.

Suzanne Chadwick  13:38

Yeah, I don't die. Yeah. Okay, great. Now, in the 90 seconds to a life, you love how to turn difficult feelings into rock solid confidence, which is your book, and I love it. And we'll have all the links, I got mine on Audible, because as my audience knows, I love to go walking and listening to great books, you do go into the one choice the eight feelings the 90 seconds. And so I'd love to work through that with you during this conversation, because I know that you know, my audience I talk about, you know, I guess getting confident a lot and how we can be courageous and take those actions so that we can build that confidence. So that's why I was so excited to speak to you about it. I know you speak about this a little bit.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  14:25

It's like it's okay. It's playing the lead song. It's all right.

Suzanne Chadwick  14:29

Awesome. Okay, great. So the first thing I do want to talk about is the uncomfortable feelings because I think that that's something that is that people are just so resistant again, like, like, we're never gonna run towards uncomfortable feelings. We're never gonna run towards things that are difficult. And so what have you found is kind of that catalyst or that moment where people like, Okay, let's do this. Like, let's get into the uncomfortable feelings and we'll go through them in a minute, but do you find that people get to a point at all Were they like, I'm ready for these? Or is it that they discover it? And then they just do it?

Dr Joan Rosenberg  15:04

What? What are you so it's a little, it's a little bit of both. I mean, lots of times I think people bump they have a certain set of problems. And what they don't realise is the problem is actually so solvable if they actually would deal with their unpleasant feelings, so that people get lost in distractions. Right. And for me, that's in the book, I talk about 35 different distractions. So everything from shopping to food, to social media, to pornography, to sex, to anxiety, to harsh self criticism to God geographical moves, to let's see what having feelings about having feelings. Right, that's what that's seven or eight, I just named right off the bat, right? And so drug and drug and alcohol that right, so. So all of those are distractions, what are we distracting from? We're distracting from our core experience, mostly of what we're feeling, but some of what we also are thinking, because we're all that is in an effort to try not to know what we know.

Suzanne Chadwick  16:09

Yeah, and we're doing that all day every day. I love it the time.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  16:12

But right, so So actually, what bumped up against us. And if we contextualise this around the time of COVID What COVID did is it sheltered everybody. And now they had to deal with stuff because they didn't have the art, they were invited to deal with stuff because they didn't have the same number of distractions. So the quieting actually had a look stuff is surfacing that needs to be dealt with. So but but that, but my thinking is, is that that when people realise that that's what they're avoiding, and that they're they're doing engaged in all these distractions, and and all they're doing is layering basically one problem on top of the next problem because they won't deal with what they're feeling, and they won't deal with what they're thinking, then they come back to actually dealing with it. And the other thing for me around this, also Suzanne is that, that when we cut off from feeling, we cut off from our sense of aliveness. And we cease to live authentically and genuinely in the world. So we've got we've got to make a place for the whole range of what we feel. And and that unpleasant feelings actually exist for the purpose of protection in our life. So if we cut off that, that 50% or more of what we feel, there's no way for us to feel a sense of wholeness, who Ellie wholeness, right that that sense of I have a solid self, there's no way to feel that and there's no way to live genuinely in the world.

Suzanne Chadwick  17:46

And from your experience, I feel like less people are there than more people like do you think that? Do you think, like come with age? Does it come with experience? Does it come with enlightenment? Like Wait, like, where do you think it kind of comes from where where people might go? I want to be that whole self? I want to deal with this. Do you like have you seen any kind of patterns? Or moments or? Well,

Dr Joan Rosenberg  18:14

yeah, I mean, certainly when people are met with crises crises are I mean, so much, unfortunately, so much of the way many people awaken is through crisis. Right. You know, there are others that say, you know, what, I want to grow personally. What can I do to develop myself? And, and which is a far better and is the thing that I would love for people to do more of, but crisis is ultimately invitation, right? I'm in debt from all the shopping, I've lost my friends, because I'm drinking so much. Right? Or what? Or I'm, I'm too angry, and it's spilling out all over the place. And I'm losing relationships. So it's all these other things that are starting to splash cold water on our face, and go wake up, wake up, wake up. And then we go, oh, I need to deal with stuff I'm not dealing with.

Suzanne Chadwick  19:05

So yeah. Great. I've just got one more question before we dive into all these questions

Dr Joan Rosenberg  19:11

I'm all yours, go for it.

Suzanne Chadwick  19:15

As children, I've got two kids, you know, you were just talking about the fact that sometimes we have to hit rock bottom rock bottom, before we come to the realisation that this is something that we need to do or that we want to do, or how do we potentially teach our kids these skills, these life skills so that they don't have to go through life blind that this is something

Dr Joan Rosenberg  19:41

right, so So two or three things here, one is the child will grow. I like to think that a child will grow to the emotional range of the parent. Yeah, so if one parent is shut down, and the other is explosive, then the kids ultimately have the options of growth. to shutting down or growing to be explosive. Right and everything in between.

Suzanne Chadwick  20:06

But writing that down, yeah,

Dr Joan Rosenberg  20:09

go for it. And but if a parent has worked on themselves, so that the emotional range is, is more tempered, and I and I not hot temper but obviously is modulate it, then the child is going to learn to do that too. So I don't want. So my thing is I want a child to grow up in a home where it's okay to have feelings that you're having. It's not okay to express them in Messy ways. It's okay to express them, but not in ways that are mean and hurtful. Right. So, so what what's the single most that was single most important thing a parent can do is work on themselves. So that they learn how to be well modulated. So they provide that space for a child to have the feelings they have. And not to protect the child from the feelings that are difficult not to talk them out of it, not to say I'm going to give you something to cry for, not to any of those things, it would be it would be look, you I know you wanted your team to win when you were playing soccer. They didn't. Or I want I know you wanted to get an A on that grade report on that report that you just did I know how much time you put into it. Right? Things don't always turn out the way we want the single most important thing you can do in addition, or the next most important thing you can do is to help your child handle disappointment, and anger and sadness and frustration. So that that is the life skill that they carry into adulthood. It's those, it's those adults. I like to say it's those kids over 20. It's those adults I'm seeing because they didn't learn how to handle the frustration when they were younger. So the more a parent can both work on themselves create the space for her child to have the feelings they have. And then to help the child deal with the disappointments and the frustrations in the sadnesses in life from the embarrassments in life. And know that they can keep going regardless. That's, that will set the child up for success in adulthood.

Suzanne Chadwick  22:36

Oh, awesome. That's great. I feel like I'm doing a bit of that. So I can definitely continue to work on it. Right. But yeah, I think that that's Yeah, I think we talk a lot about, yeah, how we feel and and what happens when things don't go well. And we talk about, you know, confidence and courage and all the rest of it. So I think that that's Yeah,

Dr Joan Rosenberg  22:58

well, when you what you wanted. So for me, it's also starting to to link the messages together. You know, I want you to understand when you're able to handle disappointment as a kid. Then as you get into adulthood, and you want to pursue things that are difficult, you're going to have the perseverance to take the risk, to take the risk in the first place, and to persevere in the second place. Because you already know how to handle disappointment. So you know, saw son or daughter, this is a life skill, that's gonna make it hugely different for you as you get into adulthood.

Suzanne Chadwick  23:36

Yeah, and I do say to my kids, as well, because I remember Michelle Obama saying this, like who you are, as a child, you're practising for the adult you're going to be, and so that's the other part of the conversation. That's like, when you're kind when you, you know, deal with struggles or hard things. You're, you're practising now for how you're going to be when you're older, as well. And I always say to my kids, like Michelle Obama says, which I love as well. Okay, awesome. Thank you so much. And I was like, 70 questions. But let's dive into the eight feelings, because I'd really love to share these with my listeners as well, the eight feelings that we need to work through and you're saying that we can do it in 90 seconds, to be able to move through these emotions. So can we dive into that?

Dr Joan Rosenberg  24:22

We're sure though, it's the way so again, this is all an answer to the question, what makes it so difficult for us to deal with unpleasant feelings? So, the easy way to remember it is to remember it through a formula that a colleague so generously named the Rosenberg reset, and I kept it because I didn't love it. So I wouldn't have I probably would never have done that but he called it that and when he introduced me one time, it was like it sticks at work. Okay. So so the what is the reset the reset is one choice eight feelings 90 seconds. And if you really need help, remembering and just remember one in eight equals nine

Dr Joan Rosenberg  25:04

Awesome. All right, okay, so So what's the one choice, the one choice is choosing into awareness as opposed to avoidance, I want people to lean into unpleasant actually want to lead them to lean into the full range of what they feel. But I want to lean to have them lean into especially unpleasant feelings. So the choice is to be as aware of and in touch with as much of your moment moment experience as possible. And you're going to do that instead of instead of going into avoidance. So it's, it's a, what's the what's the first step, you're going to lean into awareness and lean into what's happening for you. So you're going to look inside the, and notice and be aware. The second is the eight feelings. And so the eight feelings that I keep talking about are sadness, shame, helplessness, anger, vulnerability, embarrassment, disappointment, and frustration. And the first question I always get is like, why those eight because there's so many others. And I have reasons for why I did not choose any of the others. And why these eight because of the most common everyday spontaneous reactions to things not turning out the way we want or the way we perceive we need. So it's the everydayness of them. Just think about how many times in a week or two weeks or a month, that you might roll through feelings of sadness, or disappointment, or maybe embarrassment or something. So it's the every day quality of the feeling. So I'm not talking about things that are involving trauma here, though some of these feelings do get involved with trauma, I'm not talking about about or something where somebody has, you know, the, the PTSD, the Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, that kind of thing. Because Because when we experience trauma, trauma and codes in the brain differently, so so it's so it's the it's kind of the every day spontaneous reactions that I'm considering. And the last part of it is the 90 seconds part and the 90. So the eight feelings I want to highlight here, the eight feelings are really the core of my work, the 90 seconds is the method and the method for leaning into the unpleasant feelings. So So what's the deal with the 90 seconds? Well, I was always looking for a way for somebody to be able to stay present. And I kept on telling when I was working with clients early, this had been early decades of my work, I was saying ride the wave ride the wave ride the wave. And it turns out I was I was absolutely accurate. I just didn't have the science to back me. So in the early 2000s, in particular, there was a flourishing of neuroscience research that started to come out. And and there's three or four things that they talked about, first, we're one interconnected fault, we're not, we're not a brain sitting on top of a body that has no connection to it. It's one interconnected whole. The second is that most of us come to know what we're feeling emotionally, through bodily sensation.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  28:14

So think, if you're looking at me, and I just got embarrassed, you would see the redness kind of in my neck and into my face. And I would be feeling the heat of the bodily sensation. Right. So so that the heat is my marker for Oh, my God, but the heat is in my face is my marker for embarrassment, right? Yeah. So the again that and and, and what I found is, that's actually the thing that I believe, has people back away from feeling. It's because they don't want to feel the uncomfortable bodily sensation. So that's what people try to distract from. It's not the feeling the emotional feeling itself. It's the bodily sensation that helps them know what they're feeling emotional, that and if you get that that's a, it's apparent major paradigm shift if you get it, which is oh, wait a minute, if that's all I have to do is to lean into unpleasant waves of bodily sensation. I can do that. Right now that makes feelings less scary. And the last part of it then is something that was an observation made by Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor, I take no credit for that. She made an observation in her book, my Stroke of Insight that when a feeling fires off, there's a rush of bio chemicals into the bloodstream that activate those bodily sensations. And oh, by the way, they flush out of the bloodstream in roughly 90 seconds. So if I could get somebody to lean into and you've got to get you got to catch the nuances here. If I could get somebody to lean into one or more Not just one, but one or more short lived bodily sensation waves of one or more of eight unpleasant feelings, then they could go pursue anything they wanted in life.

Suzanne Chadwick  30:15

I love that. That's just it feels it feels simple.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  30:19

It is simple.

Suzanne Chadwick  30:21

Okay.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  30:23

I like it feels a lot simpler. Well, what what people have said to me is, it's really the concept, and the A feelings are at the base of everything. So, and that for me. That is, frankly, there's such a, and, you know, I just I step back. And I have the wisdom to know, there's stuff that came through me, this is not mine, on the on the vocal person for it, right? Yeah. And there's some stuff when I step back from it, it all ties together really elegantly. The eight feelings are real, really were the core pieces. But that, but you've got to learn how to lean into the feeling. And so once you realise, oh, 90 seconds, so again, it's one or more 92nd waves, and most of the time, it doesn't even hit 90 seconds. So but so it's one or more short lived bodily sensation waves to lean into the unpleasant feeling state. Right? So how do you do it, you when you start to realise you're reacting to something, take a deep breath, or take several deep breaths, slow yourself down, lean into whatever's happening in your body. And just notice, you don't have to do anything, you don't have to say anything, you don't have to do anything. Just notice be in a state of awareness, no judgement, nothing, and then go on one side. And then and then what you can do while you're settling in and letting that calmness be there, as you're riding the waves, the short lived Bali sensation waves, notice the feeling. And then you can start to be curious about what the feelings about what triggered me. Oh, is there a pattern to this? And then how would I like to let you know, do I want to make use of this feeling? So

Suzanne Chadwick  32:14

okay, so my question around that as well is is that people avoiding things because they know that feelings coming? So I understand what you're saying that when we when we experience things that were in that moment, and then we have that feeling? Just knowing that all pass in 90 seconds, usually is great to know as well. Is it? Have you found anything around, you know, knowing that I'm going to get embarrassed if I go do that or knowing that that's going to be hard to do? And just that moment or that choice to actually move into the uncomfortable feeling? Or do the task or the thing where you know, this is going to be really hard? Like is there? Do you find that people just get better at doing that? It's like, okay, I know this is going to be 90 seconds, I know why I'm going to feel like that there's going to be a reaction that I'm having. So because I want to get better at that. Because I want to do that. I'm just going to be okay, knowing that that feeling is gonna come and I'm gonna do it anyway.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  33:14

Yes, exactly. And you know, you're gonna, you'll look, this is how you develop that deep embodied sense of confidence. It's because you keep doing it, and you keep living through it. Right? So So yes, I have two stories that come to mind. One is in the book, and the other just happened today. So I want let me share both the one is a story of Paul in the book. And I sat down this is could be 15 years ago already. I sat down at a lunch with somebody and it's somebody that was in his, I believe in his 70s At that point, when you know, people exchange, what do you do? What do you do? So I started to describe what I did. And then he asked more questions, and I describe more, and then out of his mouth pops this memory. And he proceeded on the feelings. He proceeded to tell me how he was singing. In his last he was a senior in high school and he was singing he had two solos to sing in the in the high school, singing concerts, choral concert. And and after the at the event, his best friend came up to him and said, Dude, you you can't do solos anymore. You saying so flat? And he's saying in front of 2000 people. So it's like now his buddy is going you can't do that. You were you weren't in basically you were an embarrassment. Right. And, and rather than doing anything about it, rather than talking to his parents going to for more instruction from his then high school teacher getting more guidance someplace else anything. He he said he stopped singing. He loved singing in public and he stopped it entirely. Now I'm talking to him in 70s He's now spent 50 years not doing the thing he loved. Why, because of one or more waves of embarrassment. It's, it's a travesty. If you step back from that, and go, Oh my god, he stopped singing, and it was so fixable. And all it was was a few waves of embarrassment, or whatever else, then if he could have spent a lifetime doing the thing he loved. The other example I want to give is I'm working with a student who's in her 90s 1920 years old. She's looking at transferring colleges and wants to in the United States wants to apply to some of the top ones. Things like Harvard or MIT or Stanford, right? Well known places. And and she's hesitant to do it, because she doesn't want to get rejected. So I said to her, I told her I was going to get on a soapbox with her on this. So I you know, I'm pretty I'm fairly, very straightforward. And I said, Look, I said, I said, you are going to she's read the book. So it's not like this is new knowledge. Right? I said, I said, You are telling me that you are not going to apply to someplace because you're anticipating disappointment. So you're going to let the anticipation of disappointment prevent you from limitless opportunities.

Suzanne Chadwick  36:38

And what was the answer? Well, well,

Dr Joan Rosenberg  36:40

we'll see. She was working on that one to MIT. And I know it was going to go in, but my thing is, I want her to actually also applied to the Stanford and the Harvard one. Because why? Because she wants to write, and and so it's like, go for it. But don't let the anticipation of short lived bodily sensation waves of disappoint you prevent you from your dreams. Yeah. Because that's all it is. Oh, okay. So you got rejected from Stanford, meaning you got disappointed by Stanford. Okay. Next, next. Right, exactly. So, so But So the message is clear to me, is like, I don't want anybody to pull back from from the dreams or the goals or the visions they hold, simply because it's going to mean facing some kind of unpleasant feelings. No, go for it. Right. They're short lived feelings.

Suzanne Chadwick  37:45

It's really interesting, Jane, is that it's almost like like what we make that mean for ourselves. So for example, if she doesn't say Stanford rejects her. Yes. What like, what does that mean? It's, it's just it's a really interesting thing. Like, I always say, as well, you know, we always go to the, what if I fail? What if it goes wrong? What if I get embarrassed? What if it's a disaster? And I always say, just stick a post it on your computer or your wall? Or wherever that says, What if this is amazing? What if is, this is the best decision I ever made? What if it's more than, you know, better than what I ever believed? It could be? I'm like, Why? Why do we always go to all of the disaster scenario?

Dr Joan Rosenberg  38:29

Well, because because, again, that's part of the way our brains function, right? That's the protective piece. And if you look at some other people's works, I think Rick Hansen talks about this a lot, is that there's a negativity bias. And and so and why are we engaged in the negativity bias? Because the goal is to protect ourselves from being hurt, right? Oh, okay. But we have to override that. If we want to, we want to achieve any modicum of success in life, at the things we really want to be doing, then we've got to keep at it. And and be willing to tolerate the disappointments and the frustrations and this embarrassment and the sadness.

39:10

Yeah, yeah. Sorry.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  39:12

And understand it short lived. Understand, if we're only anticipating negative, it's faulty thinking, and to not make the mistake of translating i this this was a failure. This was a mistake. This was a not this way. And turn that into I'm a failure, because that's the bad emotional man. They are naughty.

Suzanne Chadwick  39:41

Yeah, yeah. And maybe that is that kind of what this means. Maybe that's when sometimes people project that onto themselves, instead of onto what they're doing. Then it then means that I failed. If if I wasn't successful at that thing, ever.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  39:55

It's not true. It's just that something didn't turn out and one equals one. Just because this one thing didn't turn out, it does not mean many things didn't turn out or many things won't turn out. It means that this one thing didn't turn out. So it means this one thing didn't turn out. Well.

Suzanne Chadwick  40:13

Yeah, yeah. So interesting. So interesting. I do want to I'm conscious of the time and your time as well. I do want to just talk about you, you say people think that life is happening to them. And you talk about the reactionary versus the creative or life by design. And I would just love to touch on that as well. Where did that come from? Was that through your research that you that that's how you think people see life? Is that it's happening to them rather than for them? Or?

Dr Joan Rosenberg  40:46

Well, I mean, I've been around a lot of people who've studied consciousness, right? And the base level of consciousness is that most of us, most of us, when we start out think life is doing something to us.

Suzanne Chadwick  40:59

Yeah, so as in we're not in control. It's all just all everything's happening to us. Right? Without any kind of what any control on our

Dr Joan Rosenberg  41:09

right random it's just a matter to us. And and if you get into the studying quantum physics and doing a variety of other things, or consciousness, then what you learn is that there's much more to life than that. And then the way so it's, you know, it's it's partly study, partly mentoring, partly, partly life experience. And then it's like, so that the first thing to do is to start to turn what you're experiencing in life into not why is this happening to me, but why is this happening for me? Yeah, so so that the first turn is to turn something, everything, my bias is everything, turn everything into a learning experience. So that adopt the attitude that every life experience can be a learning experience, now life is happening for you. Right? And the goal is to figure out okay, what can I learn from this? Didn't like that experience? Don't want to repeat it? What can I learn? What can I learn from it? Yeah, right. So same thing, it's like, or, you know, sheltering for whatever period of time, what can I learn from this? How can I use this to bring out the best in me? Right, so so so we can then start to now we're now we're starting to engage with life. We totally make the first turn to again, why is this happening for me? Now we're out of the to me and and then we want to start to have it work with me and then and then kind of through me, so that that would be moving kind of through the levels of of consciousness. And and so the I though part of the way I look at life, is that and actually, let me let me tell a quick story.

Suzanne Chadwick  42:51

If I can get it out. It doesn't have to be quick. Oh, good. 

Dr Joan Rosenberg  42:55

Okay, good. Yeah, I got the time. So I guess I just

Suzanne Chadwick  42:57

like just keep talking. I could listen to stories all day.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  43:01

Well, this one's This one's not mine. This one my the person who wrote the foreword for the book, Mary Morrissey, this is a story that Mary Morrissey tells, but this will get us into the the this life by design element and and she tells a story of bank, somebody going to the bank and wanting to cash a check. And and the banker wants the guy to sign the back of the check before he hands on the money. And the guy goes, do you how do I know that you're going to give me the money, you give me the money and then also in the chat, right? And they go back and forth multiple times on this. The banker finally looks at him says Look sir, I can't help you. His procedure the bank, you have to go. So he gets up and goes and goes to the second bank. And wouldn't you know gets into the same thing. He wants the guy to hand him the money and it'll give him the check. No, no, no, it doesn't work that way. I'll save you the time guy go through the same thing. And the guy leaves in disgust goes to the third bank and guess what? Round three. So now they're they're engaged in the same kind of conversation and the banker finally looks at the guy reaches behind him grabs, grabs a light rubber back of bad box the guy on the head and says sign the damn check. So the guy goes okay, signs the check hands the check in and the banker hands him his money. So the guy goes back to to the first bank it says, you know takes the money is waving the bills in front of the guy that bankers face. And the banker said but I bet you still had to do the same thing he made you sign the cheque before you got the money. He goes yeah, he said Well, what happened? He said they just explained it better. Now but there is a moral to the story. And and again, I just I love Mary's teaching around this. And the moral of the story is, life is the banker So what's the deal, we have to sign the check? We have to commit to something before life says, Okay, now I'll help deliver it. Right. So that so that, and that's really part of the thing is understanding when we get that understanding about life, then we have to go take the risk, we have to show life that we're committed to something, and be persistent in that commitment, or persevere in that commitment, then life goes, I see you, let me let me know, help you out. So part of it is then understanding that, that life and I think of life is dynamic, life will co create with us. But we have to be willing to get out there and to take the risk. And to not have things go well, or whatever it might be, before life is going to come back in and say, Alright, let's co create, let's make some stuff happen here. And now in a life by design, why, because we're pursuing the things that are meaningful to us. Gosh, I love that. You say,

Suzanne Chadwick  46:17

it's so true, isn't it? It's so true. We have to take it's like that. It's like, it's like that Indiana Jones. Where it's like, you can't see the bridge. But he's got to take that leap or that step of faith and just know that if if I do these if I believe in it, and it's an interesting one, isn't it? Like you want to take that leap or that step of faith and you want to know that it's gonna catch you? Sometimes it does.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  46:45

And sometimes it doesn't. And then that's when we say, I'm going to deal with the unpleasant feelings that are involved with this. And I'm going to keep going. Yeah. Right. And just and to see that the obstacles are what we perceive as obstacles or barriers are a test of our commitment to the thing we say we want. Yes, it's not an obstacle. It's a test of our commitment. Yeah, you really want this? Well, then work through this one.

Suzanne Chadwick  47:21

Yeah, let's hide. Sure. Oh, my gosh, I love that. That's so good. Thank you for sharing that story. Sure. Yeah. And I do. And I just, I think that that is so important, as well, as is for us to acknowledge that because I think sometimes it's like, well, if it's not easy, then maybe this is not right for me.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  47:40

Well, we can make all sorts of stories.

Suzanne Chadwick  47:44

That's what I've read. Sometimes it's like, well, it's not easy. Maybe Maybe it's not the right path.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  47:50

No, if it's if it's not easy, then it means it's gonna go, it's gonna grow you. So the whole thing here is that is that it's not whatever we're pursuing. It doesn't matter what it is, frankly, that is our medium for growth. Yeah. And, and so it's not, if it's not easy, then it's who you become, at the end of that particular journey. That's, that's the most important thing that happens for us. It's not, it's not even that we achieved the thing that has its own measure of importance, but it's who we became in the process of getting there. That is the key.

Suzanne Chadwick  48:36

Yeah. Sorry, good. I'm just sitting here, and I'm just processing and absorbing everything. Because I just think I just think it's such, it's such an important message. And it's so important for us to have these conversations as well. Because I just think, you know, a lot of times we'll do things and, you know, I kind of feel like I'm a pretty confident person. And I'll go after things, and I'll be courageous. But I just think sometimes it's good to just step back and kind of ask yourself or reflect on the fact of who might be coming in this journey, like, what am I learning along the way? What are the things that I may need to tune into a little bit more in myself as well, when it comes to those feelings? And is there anything that I'm resisting right now, because it's really easy to sometimes look at all the things we do, really well. Maybe not always look at the things that, that we would maybe like to do more, but we're not doing and work on those as well. Right.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  49:34

Right. I mean, that the, the, the example that's coming to mind while you're talking about that, is the first TED talk that I did, I've done too. And the first one that I did, you know, I'm a one on one. So there was a it was a process for me to kind of get there. But the other is I'd never spoken without notes and you know, and it was gonna be kind of a complex concept. You know, and how can I get this idea? Cross in the simplest way possible that I that I believe can have impact for people. Right? I would, because it can really serve if people can get it. So I started, I've never done anything like that it was a real stretch, right? But it's who I become, or who I became, in the process to be able to deliver that. Sorry, it's the, it's no, it's the growth is the growth part of it. And it's and so for, again, for whoever's listening, it's keeping an open mind. So willing, it's an openness and a willingness and a curiosity, that that becomes part of this whole package of exploring and, and engaging with life in such a way that you co create with life, you get to design your life, as opposed to feel like it's happening to you.

Suzanne Chadwick  50:52

Yeah, I love that. That's right. And do you struggle with anything anymore? When it comes to your feelings? Do you think that that's just an ongoing process of life? Or do you think that it's something that we, we can we can master?

Dr Joan Rosenberg  51:05

I do I do. I know, we do get better at it. You know, I've had, I've hit different points of, of times, where I've been sad, you know, and, and, you know, I still have a parent that's alive. And, and for her age, doing well, doing very well. And, and, but I know that those those days are getting shorter. Right? So, so I'm anticipating you can actually hear my voice, I'm anticipating the sadness. Right? So but it's not, um, am I going to let myself move into that and be in it? Heck, yeah, I'm letting myself do it. Now, even as I think about it, so we get better at it by willing to just simply stay present to the feeling itself. Right. And not to shy away from it, or realise that we need a little bit of break from it and get help or have other people around or whatever it might be, for whatever the issue is. And and we just have to also develop the willingness to ask for help, which to me is also part of emotional strength. So being able to deal with the unpleasant feelings, plus being able to ask for help, both of those, for me are part of my definition of emotional strength. So it's, yeah, so we do get better at it. And because we know it's not going to, for the most part, it's not going to pull us over. And I've been through I've been through intense periods of grief before, I already know what that feels like. So it so it's like, okay, if I have to go through another one, then I'll go through another one. So and but it's going in, it's like I already know, I already know what this is like. So it but it's the the willingness then to stay present to the experience.

Suzanne Chadwick  52:53

Yeah. And I'd like to just touch on something that you just said, then as well, we also talk about, we are always seeking a fuller expression of ourselves. And I remember, I think it was on clubhouse where I asked you, do you think that everybody actually does seek a fuller expression of themselves? Because I think that sometimes there are, I'd like to talk about the people around us is where this is going, and how the people around us help us to have that emotional strength, and also support us to be able to work through those feelings, etc. Like, do you have any thoughts or see any relation to the people that we surround ourselves with, as to how we develop in this area of our lives?

Dr Joan Rosenberg  53:42

Well, yeah, I mean, I think if you're a lot of people where there's a lot of negativity, it's gonna pull you back, if you allow yourself to be influenced in that way. But if you allow your internal God to kind of be in charge, then then even those people are not going to stop you from the things you want to pursue. But I think there's a deeper level question there. Here's it. And I'm not sure if I'm going to take us off path or not. So pull me anyway, you're like, well call me back. If I start to do that. People who are in survival mode are not going to be thinking, right? Or they are going to be thinking in a certain way. How can this be better, right? But it's not from the standpoint of flourishing. It's not from the standpoint of thriving is from the standpoint of having a achieving sense of stability, right? So if I don't have food, I don't have friends. I don't have finances, I don't have shelter, right? And maybe one or two other really big things like that, then life is going to be a bit more of a strain. So so the first step is I just want to get to the level where I have a sense of stability. Right? Once people have that on a more consistent basis, I think Most of us, it's I think it's a life experience, frankly, that yes, that we do want to, we want to go after something. Right. And and, you know, I've heard many people say, Well, I achieved these big goals. Except I want more. Yes, of course you want more, because you're ready for the next thing. Right? Because life is seeking up for your full expression. Again, I defer to Mary for that. She was the one that kind of first it's like, it's because I was trying to understand how come I was that I, you know, I would reach a certain level. And I go, No, but there's, there's more to life. Right? Well, because that's how that's how life works. Life, life wants to life wants to have more of itself. And so, so that when when you are an expression of life, and you're pursuing the things that you love, and you reach that, that particular level of your viewer after, then you might stay there for a little bit, enjoy it, and then you're gonna go, Okay, what's next? Right, it's like, I'm ready. I'm ready for the next thing to grow me. Yeah. And that's, but that's what life is. It's the next growth thing to, to enjoying what you achieve. And then it's like, the next if there's, you're always going to desire as long as again, your you have your general health, you'd have the things that keep life in a more stable manner than there's a part of you, I think it will always seek greater growth.

Suzanne Chadwick  56:36

And we'll be able to seek greater growth with more ease if we master the eight themes.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  56:43

If you're willing to deal with unpleasant feelings, then you're golden. Yeah.

Suzanne Chadwick 56:48

so good.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  56:50

There's nothing that's gonna stop you.

Suzanne Chadwick 56:53

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  56:54

What's the worst that's gonna happen? You'll experience one or more of the feelings. Okay, next.

Suzanne Chadwick 57:03

I love I love it. Like I said to you earlier, it just seems so simple. It seems. It is.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  57:10

Well, I, what I what dawned on me at this is recent, actually, what dawned on me in terms of what the nature of my work is about I, it comes down to four words. If you deal with the unpleasant feelings, it's you've become emotionally liberated. And if you develop the skills, then communication is a skill. If you develop the skill to speak up with ease, then what you have what you have available to you is limitless opportunity.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  57:46

That's right. So again, I can I can relate stories from my own life to convince that even even taking the risk to do the TED Talk. Right? It ended up in circumstances where I met with a producer, the producer invited, I did the TED Talk, an agent saw the TED talk while she was on the subway in New York. That led to a book proposal, the book proposal lead to a book the book, but the book lead to cloudkit. Right. limitless opportunity. I don't know where it's going next. Right? So, so one one asked one goal and the willingness to pursue it opens everything up. Why? Because I'm willing to deal with the emotional, that's emotional liberation part of it. And because I'm willing to set either to make a statement, or or make an ask. Both of those lead to limitless opportunity.

Suzanne Chadwick  58:55

And with those things that you wanted to do before it all happened, like did you kind of think I'd love to, like so they were kind of like you had that?

Dr Joan Rosenberg  59:04

Yeah, yeah, that happened. That easily happened. A good four years after I first started to think about

Dr Joan Rosenberg  59:13

so yeah, and the book was 10 years. So I first started writing the book in 2009. And it didn't get published into and actually, it was it was three days ago. It was 2012. It was 2012. Sorry about that was 212 two years ago. So the book is just out two years now. And so but it's it comes from being willing to get in there to do it. So my thing is the whole approach forwards emotionally liberated, limitless opportunity. Who wouldn't want that?

Suzanne Chadwick  59:51

Who wouldn't want that? Dr. Joan Rosenberg, not want that. Oh, it's so good. It's so good. Thank you so much for sharing. I absolutely love your research and your thought process around it. And yeah, I just I'm so passionate about limitless opportunities for myself and my kids and my listeners, I'm just like, it's there for us. We just have to be willing to, like, go after it and pursue it and take it. And it's not that it's easy. It's not that it'll be handed to us. But if we don't pursue it, it'll never be a reality.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  1:00:30

That's right. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And speaking up is a big piece of this. So

Suzanne Chadwick 1:00:36

no, I love that. So good. 

Suzanne Chadwick  1:00:39

Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  1:00:42

It's a treat an absolute treat. Had a great time.

Suzanne Chadwick  1:00:45

Oh, so good. Now, we're gonna have all your links in the show notes. But you know, my, my, my listeners are running, they're walking the dog. They're in the car. Where's the best place that you like to connect with people? Where should they go?

Dr Joan Rosenberg  1:00:57

Well, I would say two places. I would say, my website, Dr. Joan Rosenberg, calm. We got a lot of stuff there. And then the other is I'm on social media, and probably the one I'm on the most frequently is Instagram. Okay, so that's a if people want to reach out through particularly go direct message or something like that, that would be a way to go there. Yeah. Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn,

Suzanne Chadwick  1:01:24

and clubhouse now as well. Well, I'm looking forward to running your regular room, if that's something that you do. Yeah, if you need any help, just facilitating and just for moral support, just to do that. All right.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  1:01:44

I got that will do.

Suzanne Chadwick  1:01:46

Amazing. Well, thank you so much. And I can't wait to share this with my listeners as well.

Dr Joan Rosenberg  1:01:51

Likewise, thanks so much. 

Suzanne Chadwick  1:01:53

Oh my gosh, how many gems? How many gems I can tell you now, we will be repurposing this, this episode with quotes and audio grabs, add videos, because there was so much in there. And it was just so good. And the other thing is that you can actually watch the video if you go to the show notes page, which will be Suzanne chadwick.com, forward slash pod 146. And you'll be able to see all of Jane's links there as well. So you can grab a book, you can watch the TED talk, you can watch the video to this interview. Plus, you'll get the show notes there as well. I hope that you enjoyed that. Because Can I tell you being doing the interview with her was amazing. editing this podcast episode and re listening to it. And really like cutting out the different snippets that I really want to share even more with you. I've just loved it. I've just loved it. And I cannot wait for you to listen to this maybe more than once. Maybe you need to listen to it more than once. That you have the opportunity for on limited success in your life if you're willing to just take that leap of faith and know that you're going to have those unpleasant feelings but that you are totally capable of working through them. And so I'm excited for me. I'm excited for you. Because I hope that you really use this episode, and you get so much out of it. I think this is probably one of my favourite episodes. I just have to tell you that. Well that's it for another week. It has been amazing to have you here as always, and remember to follow me on all socials at CS Chadwick. But thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, then I would love you to leave a review so that others can find the podcast and come and hang out with us every week. The music to this podcast was created by accident on SoundCloud. Until next time, have an awesome week and make sure you keep playing big and branding bold.