Suzanne Chadwick 0:00
Welcome back to the podcast amazing to have you here. Not so nasally today, which is nice. Anyway, today I have got a guest on the podcast that I am super excited to share with you. I think that a lot of the things that we go into today can really help you to learn more about your audience and learn more about your customer. And right at the end of the podcast, we also talk about some of the things that you can put in place to gain more info insight into your customer to use in your copy. So I am speaking with Nadine, Natalie. She is an audience driven copywriter and brand messaging strategist for smart online business owners, which is obviously all of you because you're here listening to this podcast. So she has a signature Lean and in capitals copy method, which turns every brand touchpoint into genuine connections that drive sales, celebrate loyalty and create loyal brand advocates who happily do the word spreading for you. Over the past seven years, she has given hundreds of industry, disrupting online business owners the words to shine and the strategies to build a sustainable audience centered business. So this was a really valuable conversation. The Dean and I have been in contact for a long time. She has very generously referred clients to me, I met her at the huddle. And I love the content that she shares online. And I know that she's really helped her clients to create words that work as well. So that is what we're talking about today. I think that there is never a time to not be learning about how to write better copy. If I'm honest, I think that the market is always changing, as we know and becoming a better writer is something that is a skill that's worth really honing and developing. If you're the person who's writing the emails, who's writing the captions, who's writing the copy for a lot of what you do. I mean, I hired copywriters for a lot of the bulk work on the website, etc. But on a day to day basis, I'm the one who's writing the copy. And so I am always looking at how can I write copy better? How can it be more engaging? How can I tell better stories? How can I share the insights that I'm getting from clients? And I think if you're not thinking about your copy in that way, then this is the episode for you. And I'd really encourage you to start thinking about how you become a better writer in your business. I think that you know, there are some core things becoming great at money management, becoming a great speaker or communicator, becoming a good copywriter as well for the day to day things. I think they're just cool things that you need to learn to do. And obviously all the other things that we do teach and BBA. But listen, let's dive into this week's episode because I know that it's going to be a really valuable one for you.

Nadine, welcome to the brandbuilders Lab podcast.

Nadine Nethery 3:27
Thanks so so excited to be here. I can't believe it's finally finally happened. We've met you know via various channels like mutual clients, online events in person events like the huddle. You were amazing on stage. Just have to remind you, I'm sure you know.

Suzanne Chadwick 3:46
That feels like a million years ago. That was such an amazing was it a weekend it was a weekend wasn't a three day weekend? The extra answer but how amazing yeah, the huddle is incredible. Yes, I know so good. It's so funny because I like know people from online and you know them from online for years and then I met quite a few people who I only knew online at the huddle actually was good.

Nadine Nethery 4:13
Doesn't it feel weird when you go I feel like I know you but you don't really it's just a weird the online space.

Suzanne Chadwick 4:21
Yeah, it is so good. So good. Awesome. Well listen, for my audience. I've given a little bit of an intro but for my audience, can you tell us about you and how you got here and a little bit of that background?

Nadine Nethery 4:35
salutely

Yeah, so I am a strategic email and website copywriter for smart online business owners who want to approach their copy their content creation, their strategy for their business smarter so they can work more cleverly, and, you know, optimize everything in their business and maximize the outcomes release though I might be able to tell originally, I'm from Germany. So I've been in Australia got over 20 years now met my Aussie husband while working in London. And yeah, three kids later here I am in Sydney. And like most copywriters, I didn't start out as a copywriter. So I have a long and varied background in corporate comms, PR, corporate sales, all the things that really are so important in what I do for my clients nowadays. So yeah, I started out as I sit in the back in London and are doing better, this bit of that just was keen to travel the world and get out there and worked in a call center for a high end fashion brand. That was funnily enough, you know, had a German call center selling to German corporates, and God sent me propose to buy some creepy, you know, high flying executive, it's just really random. But even you know, that Job has given me so many insights that I can use in my business today, you know, like client retention, customer service, how to really wow, the customers to give them that next level client experience, then moved to Australia settled here. And again, you know, by chance ended up working for the German carmaker who needed someone to go between like automotive media in Australia, and so liaise with the head office. So fell into that by chance. And really, it ultimately became my dream job traveling to motor shows in Europe and staying in five star hotels driving the fancy new car and, you know, drinking wine. Yeah, it's pretty good. So did that for 10 odd years, really learned how to, you know, pitch our product, again, as the best find that angle, that point of difference. And, unfortunately, then, was made redundant, like so many women have experienced in their career. So that was after 10 years, in my dream job, tickets to my name, and it just ultimately crushed my, my ego at the time. So my second one was three months at a time, at the time, and hormones, everything just came into it, it was just a life altering experience. In retrospect, I'm really glad it happened, because I worked out that I don't want to be a number in a system, you know, in a company, again, I wanted to do something that worked with my lifestyle, you know, the travel clearly wouldn't have worked anyway. But just finding something with a bit more purpose bit more meaning. And so that sent me on a bit of a soul searching journey. In between while working for like, you know, looking for that something, I had to pay some bills, I went back into full time employment, because part time at the time just didn't exist. And I just was impossible to find a job. So I started working for one of Australia's largest retailers in corporate sales, something I hadn't necessarily done before. And I was tasked with selling this impossible to sell it solution that no one wanted. At the core, it was amazing, but it just took a bit of convincing and rejigging how they were approaching sales, which again, ultimately, all comes full circle in what I do nowadays, you know, that finding that perfect pitch and speaking to what's in it for them, rather than as their business wanting to grow our bottom line? And, yeah, so while I was working that job again, and not loving it, not really knowing where to go from there, I fell into content marketing, so explored, you know, the world of social media thought I was going to go down that path, took a course in content marketing, and part of that was a module on copywriting. And that sort of made everything fall into place. And I mean, how good is that you can, you can write, you can you know, use all the skills I've gathered over the years and people actually pay you for it. And so yeah, it looked into that was after cause and got mentoring from you know, copywriters that were just one or two steps ahead of where I was and started as a side hustle fell pregnant with number three during math leave started it all and I've never looked back. So it's been seven odd years since I started. I'm working with some amazing clients and I love what I do every day.

Suzanne Chadwick 9:34
So goodI love that. And I think it is it's it's it is just following the breadcrumbs as well. It's like, you know, getting into a content course, but kind of really cherry picking that as around copywriting where I think that sometimes you know, we don't spend the time to hone in on what do I really love about this or what's the one thing that I want to focus on? And I think that that can get rid of the noise sometimes I was Yeah, I think really honing in is like, yeah, it's so worth it.

Nadine Nethery 10:04
And funnily enough, like, you know, when you look back on your career, it all makes sense. Like at the time you go, you know, what a waste of time this job, it didn't really didn't really add anything. But when you look back, every single job I've had, over the years, has given me some insights, some amazing skill that I'm using today. So, you know, even the content marketing course, you know, starting out doing everything for everyone, it's just helped me work out my strengthen what I'm created, and you know, how I can best support my clients nowadays. So everything's worth it, even if it seems like, you know, a big waste of time.

Suzanne Chadwick 10:39
Yeah, and I mean, I think each thing is a stepping stone. I think you learn about yourself in the process, you learn about what you like, and what you don't like. And at the end of the day, it was the right opportunity in that moment. And that leads you to whatever the next thing is. So absolutely, yeah, your journeys, your journey.

Yeah.

Nadine Nethery 10:56
Yeah. Even every client, I'm sure you're, you're just like me, every client you work with, I find, you know, they leave a little mark on you as a person as well. And you know, how you develop it as a business owner as well?

Suzanne Chadwick 11:10
Yeah, awesome. I love that. So good. Well, we're going to be talking about the secret behind your best copy, which definitely piqued my interest. And it says, No, it's not being a great writer. It's all about leaning into your audience. So I think that writing is just part and parcel of being a business owner. I think that we've got to understand what our message is, we've got to write it. Well, I think it's got to evolve as the market evolves as well as our clients needs evolve. And so I really thought this was such a great topic for my amazing listeners, as to what we need to focus on. So I thought I'd hand it over to you to dive into how we can find our best copyright now. Yeah, so you've touched on on the most important idea already that now there's a misconception out there that you have to be this creative person. And writing comes all down to finding big words and stringing together long sentences that sound amazing, it all really starts with taking that step back as a business owner and really leaning in on your customer, your audience, you know, that ideal person that's perfectly positioned to buy into what you have to offer. And that's what I do as part of my signature lien copy method. So again, it's been a gradual process, like I didn't start out as the strategic copywriter you see here today, so I took,

Nadine Nethery 12:41
yeah, a little while to get there. And ultimately, what I worked out is, you know, a lot of my clients, when I first started out came to me with this idea that they know their customer, they've got their ducks in a row, it's you know, Wendy living in fitzer, I was 35 with two kids. But that really didn't tell me as the person who has to write to Wendy much about what was going on in Wendy's head, you know, what was keeping her up at night? What did she need to hear to really see, you know, my clients offer is that perfect, perfect solution. So that's where I went, you know, really, it's, it comes down to that step back and really having two way intentional two way conversations with my clients audience before starting to write a copy for their brand. And so it's this circular model that can easily be implemented in, you know, your listeners, businesses in any business, really. And it's this never ending process that ultimately, with every insight you gather, every conversation you have helps you narrow down your messaging, your copy your branding, your offers, basically refine your entire business. And so as I said, it's all about leaning into your audience. So there's four steps to it. It all starts with listening. So really having those intentional conversations, giving your clients, your customers, your audience, a platform to share what is going on in their mind. So really getting a backstage pass to their dreams, their desires, their pain points, all the things we need as business owners to really have that, you know, 360 degree picture of our audience, once we have gathered, you know, that insight that backstage pass, it all comes down to us to actually make something with those insights are having conversations is great, but if you don't sit down as a business owner and look at the data at the finding strategically, you've basically wasted your time so really develop a system that you can organize all that Intel and extract patterns that you pick up so let's say you know certain words that your audience use all the time to describe their their lifestyle, you know, the solutions they're looking for. or even desires, so pay really close attention to how they are talking about that dream future they're trying to get to. Very important as well I find often forgotten is those false beliefs. There are so many beliefs out there, you know, we're all operating in a bigger ecosystem. So our friends, our family, they all have opinions, and often they rub off on us, intentionally or unintentionally. So it's all about really understanding the beliefs that are impacting their decision making process, and then being able to speak to those acknowledging them just as much as objections, as well. So,

Suzanne Chadwick 15:40
yeah, I think one of the big things that a lot of people struggle with in the Listening phase is actually not knowing who to ask and what to ask. And I think that no matter whether you're starting out in business, or you're now five years down the track, I think that the language that clients use changes, I think that their desires change, I think it depends if you're just you're wanting to work with the same level of client consistently, or whether you're evolving with your clients as well. So for people who are trying to work out that listening phase, and you're sort of saying put a system in place, can you give us a little bit of insight into how we find that the people that are right to speak to? Because I think, you know, I always say to clients, don't just ask, well, how much should this be? Because? Or is this message? Does this message resonate? Because you could be asking somebody who's not your ideal client? I would say, I don't ask my husband, what he thinks about things, because he's not the person I'm speaking. Yeah. So you know, he's gonna be like, Well, I don't know, that doesn't really affect me, or that doesn't really interest me. So how do we go about this the right way and put that system in place?

Nadine Nethery 16:50
Yes. As you said, all starts with asking the right people. So you can ask, you know, your mom and mother in law who have no idea. And they're going to have a whole different picture of how much they're willing to pay for your service to someone else. And the funny thing is, I was actually posting a survey that I was running for my client in an online business community, I think you're part of it as well. But you're not just putting it out there saying, we are gathering insights for this client project. And I'd love to tap into the experience with X, Y, that at the time, it was like a financial service business. And the interesting thing is someone's head, because part of part of that survey was the question, you know, if you were to work with a virtual CFO, how much would you be willing to pay per month? And someone went, What a stupid question to ask. But, again, it's about the approach. So what we did is we had a pre qualifying question in there to tap into the different mindset. So we first question we asked was all about, you know, whether they had worked with the CFO, then we were feeding them very particular strategic questions based on the experience, if they were considering working with someone, or if they had no idea what a virtual CFO was. And we asked that question to those three different groups. And the insights were amazing. So there was a reason to ask this question. Because, you know, based on the experience, people were willing to pay a very different amount. Because, you know, people who had worked with the CFO, and knew the amazing outcomes that were coming with that service, they were willing to pay big chunks of dollars, you know, big chunks of money to outsell us that peace of mind, whereas people who had no idea, you know, they were down the border. And so it's really important to work out the different levels of, you know, how much people are willing to invest based on how you're positioning your brand, and how it all fits together. So it's all about starting with with the right people. And then also, if you want to tap into different mindsets, and different experience levels to help you close that messaging gap, and work out what needs to happen for people to move from one segment to the next. It is so powerful to TM branch it out, you know, be strategic about the audience, and how you involve them. So there are surveys. And then there are strategic surveys. So it's all about setting it up for success right from the start. And then yeah, once you have those insight insights and those different personas, you can map it all out, you know, have a look at the different mindsets, what needs to happen to close the messaging gaps and where you want to position yourself and even you know at which point at which awareness level you want to come in to make your life as a brand owner, as easy as possible. Yeah,

Suzanne Chadwick 19:45
yeah. And I love that it takes me back to my brand consulting days because we used to do a lot of surveys within organizations, but we used to cut the data by level and by speciality. Like all of those how long they'd been in The business, all of those sorts of things so that you could actually cut the data and say, Okay, well, you know, 20% of people who have been with the business for longer than five years and are at this level and above, they thought this or some of those insights. So I think that, you know, I love that, you know, you've defined or separated a survey versus a strategic survey. And I think for people who I was talking about biotypes, the other day in my community, and you know, for people who are if you've got customers that are more analytical, being able to talk to them about things that are a little bit more in depth, I think and show like your expertise and understanding of their problem, at the level that they're at, I think things like that, as you mature in business. And depending on the level that you work out with clients, I think the more you can show them you understand at a deeper level. I think that that is really persuasive.

Nadine Nethery 21:00
Absolutely. And I mean, that luxury comes with being in business for a while as well. So obviously, the longer you're in business, let's say you've been in business, in three or four years, you have a pretty good idea of who you enjoy working with. And maybe the type of person that gives you headaches all the time, or the type of offer that doesn't necessarily, you know, light you up anymore. So the longer you're in business, the more specific you can be about who you ask as well. So you know, where to track them down, you know, where they hang out. And then you can use those insights, and that new understanding to really target them with offers that, you know, fit into their lifestyle, into their budget into the way they like to work. It just is so transformative, not only for the copy, because he can be specific, but in creating a business that suits your lifestyle. And the way you like to work long term as well. Yeah,

Suzanne Chadwick 21:54
we need to move on to the next one. But I think this is such a juicy one. Because I know the question that people who maybe are in the first few years of business will ask is Where do I find these people? So like, how are you finding the right level of client and the client? Who has that problem needs that solution? Like where are you finding them?

Nadine Nethery 22:16
Yeah, so obviously, when you're starting out, you don't have many clients TNA, you can't ask as many people as you normally would. But it all comes down to knowing where they hang out. Online, really. So there are so many online communities like Facebook is great. There are business communities where you can track down your, you know, ideal customer, obviously, you don't want to come into a new group and start pitching people your services. So it's important to position your survey as purely research. You're not trying to pitch anything. But you'd be surprised how forthcoming people are with, you know, supporting new businesses, particularly if you're presented in a way that you know, you've got this dream, you've got a passion, and you really want to make it work. People aren't very, very generous with their expertise with experience with their time. So yeah, I've worked with countless new business owners again, who said, I've tried sending surveys and no one responds, and I didn't get much out of it, because they've all tick boxes and dropdowns. And so we just started from scratch worked out where the audience is hanging out, I posted in our business communities that I'm a part of, if they aligned with that audience, and it's about, again, showing up authentically, genuinely, and setting it up in a way that shows people you're just following your dreams, you're trying to succeed, and you're hoping they can support you in any shape or form.

Suzanne Chadwick 23:43
And I think it's also about realizing that you don't just ask once or twice. I mean, I interviewed a lot like over 50 Women in my business. And when I first started, and it was just chipping away at it, it was just like, you know, having three conversations at first and then having another two conversations and like just having that as part of the process of building the business growing the audience, the more my community grew, the more questions I asked. And so eventually, I ended up with a very large sort of data set of my ideal clients. But I just think it wasn't just like I put out one post. And I got all of his information. It was something that I was consistently asking, you know, if you're somebody who's like this, and you've got this problem, I'd love to have a conversation. But I think also being a bit more like persistent when you are in the process of gathering that information, I think is important too.

Nadine Nethery 24:41
Yeah. And I think sometimes that's why people get put off too. They think they have to have 50 conversation, you know, in a week. It's not it doesn't have to be overwhelming and it's really important as well as you know, the economy changes and shifts like with recessions that are looming at them. aren't growing interest rates pandemics that are still having effects nowadays, like the mindset shifts all the time, the economy, impacts shift all the time in our budgets and available resources, people and businesses have shifts. So you need to really move with the times all the time. So your sales page, your website is never 100% done. So you need to make tweaks as people change as the economy changes, you know, unfortunately, as business owners, it just never stops. Okay, cool.

Suzanne Chadwick 25:30
What's the next thing we need to look at?

Nadine Nethery 25:33
I think so listening and then listening, adopting. So once we've got our system, we know how we're going to organize it, where organizing patterns were realizing and how it all fits together, we need to adopt it in all the right places. So we need to adopt it in our messaging, and the copy. So really paying attention how we can swipe some of those amazing statements people have given us in our copy. And again, coming back to that, you know, 80% really comes down to that research process, your audience is giving you so many golden nuggets that you can often copy and paste and repurposing bullet point lists. And he even like I've written whole taglines headings that were based around one answer someone gave me well, and oh, my god, that is just genius. totally gonna run with it. And it's something that you know, that business owner now me as a copywriter will really struggle to come up with because I necessarily don't match, you know, my clients, customer avatar. So it is just so so invaluable to make your copy stick to get people to really resonate with even tangible wins tangible transformations that people have seen from working with your business. So you know, we're in the online coaching space, I'm sure you've come across, I'm powering up leveling game, changing the words you read on every second sales page. So things like that. Your audience is too smart. They're going, Oh, my God, it's all it's just another coaching program. So I'm really honing in on, you know, what it meant for their retention rates for their conversion rates, has it tripled their, you know, lead numbers, you know, are people paying double the price they used to. So it's something tangible works much better. And you can only find those tangible outcomes, transformations and wins by having those intangible intentional conversations and then adopting it in your copy. It's also important, you know, I know we're talking about copywriting messaging and writing your best copy yet. But those patterns, desires, all those things can help you even take your business to the next level. So let's say your service provider at the moment, people might tell you amazing things about different ways of working with you. So they might say, I'd love to, you know, rather than you doing it all for me, like I love your way of thinking. If you had a day off boxer, I would totally jump for it. So you know those little sparks, and you go, Oh, my God, I never thought about it. So really listening to what your comments what your audience is telling you what they're hinting at, and how they would like to work with you. And yeah, adopting it in your copy your messaging and your business.

Suzanne Chadwick 28:27
Yeah. Yeah, I think one of the things is I'm always referring back to a lot of the other interviews or questions or comments that clients have made, like, whenever I'm looking for what, you know, What content do I want to create at the moment? Well, what are the conversations I'm having? What are the things that they're saying, and, and using that in a lot of my copy as well, which feels very fresh, because I think, you know, I always say to people, if you don't feel like a broken record, you're doing it wrong, because it takes so many times for people to hear something in order for it to really sink in. But I think as business owners, it's really easy to feel really, like stale and bored with your own message as well. So I think that, you know, whilst you can still be talking about the same thing, there could be different ways in new ways of talking about it that you hear from your clients. So adopting that, you know, can keep things fresh for you, and keep it relevant and timely for your audience as well. So yeah, I love that. Yeah,

Nadine Nethery 29:31
it just takes the, you know, the overwhelm away because we're so stuck in our own head, and we're trying to guess what to write in next week's email and how to, as you said, you know, be fresh and new. So, you know, why not let our audience tell us what they need to hear. So we can, you know, increase that engagement, get the engagement rate up and actually deliver something our audience wants to hear.

Suzanne Chadwick 29:55
Yeah, awesome. What else do we need to be thinking about?

Nadine Nethery 29:59
So once we've adopted things, we need to never stop narrowing things down. So once we've sold things once, once we've worked with someone, that's only the beginning of that relationship, so really having even more conversations, once we've, you know, handed over our deliverable to the service providers, you know, once you've handed over your website, copy your graphics, the shining your website, really having those conversations and keeping in touch with your customers, for those, you know, fresh wins that are coming in, sometimes months after working with someone, same for online courses, if you work with students don't just, you know, said that completion survey, and if they don't complete it, well, that's bad enough, really keep up that conversation with them and check in with them regularly to see how their business has evolved, their life has evolved, and also how, you know, they see your relationship evolving as well with him as that service provider. And unfortunately, as I said, before, you know, your messaging just has to shift with the times and go with the times, and often our business evolves, as well. So my business nowadays looks very different to what it used to look. And the way I work with my clients looks very different. So yeah, having those conversations and really staying in front of mind, is the best way to keep your business in modern, fresh and also make it work for you. So it lights you up.

Suzanne Chadwick 31:29
Yeah, yeah. And I think that, you know, that narrowing, I think that that, hopefully is done through assessing as well. So assessing what really works, what doesn't work where you, you know, where where you really shine and what your clients love to it's kind of like the perfect, you know, the perfect storm of I love it, it's profitable. My clients love it, like it's easy to sell. I think that, you know, constantly looking at that and working out, you know, how do I continue to make that work even better for me, and I think it's only through narrowing it down that you can really do that, too. Yeah, yeah, honing it. Yes,

Nadine Nethery 32:13
absolutely. And every client project, even live launching, you know, actually having a look at your data after to have a look at, you know, how your landing pages converted, which emails are actually got the clicks, so have a look at what resonated what might need tweaking. So you might scratch one, one email that just totally tanked and replace it with something that people told you after you close the cart, and it might just drop and you know, oh my God, I didn't mention that on the sales page. So next time around, I'm going to make that front and center. So it's like constant learning from your audience, and also as a business owner, in itself. And yeah, just being open to feedback. I think sometimes, as business owners, we always feel attacked, when people tell us, you know, I didn't like this or I didn't buy because x y Zed. People aren't mean by an HR. So if you just take it with a grain of salt and use it as an opportunity to, you know, to grow, to improve and to optimize your business. It's a much healthier mindset as well to feedback and you know, bad reviews and things like it's going to happen eventually, someone's not going to be impressed with what you've delivered for whatever reason, you know, they have different ideas about your, your program that they joined. So just use it as an opportunity to have a look at how you can even present it in a way that then aligns with reality and what, you know, waits for them inside.

Suzanne Chadwick 33:44
Yeah. And I also think that, you know, it's not going to be for everybody. And that's fine. I think it's also about, like, this is where, you know, listening to the clients you actually want to work with. And not everybody I was joking around, but I'm joking, not joking. On a community call that I was just on where, you know, I said there was somebody years ago who said to me, you're like you're a lot. Like you're a lot to handle. That's cool. I'm like, I'm not sure everybody. Yeah, so I think that like I think that it's just, it's almost like a good thing. It's like awesome, then the people who are not aligned to me, they can go follow somebody else like you. You don't have to be here. And also also, I always say, you know, I got that one star review on the podcast, and I gave them a shout out. I'm like, Thanks for trying it. It's obviously not for you. Yeah, but that's okay. Like I think we've just got a, you know, toughen you have a bit of a tough skin as well and just be like, a good thing. When people realize that they're not for that we're not for them, because then obviously hopefully our message is very clear about who we are for.

Nadine Nethery 34:54
And that's the whole point. It's like your website, your website shouldn't speak to everyone It needs to really put some people off, because they're the people that never would have worked with you, they would have wasted your time on Discovery calls. And it's, yeah, it's just it should be very new and very specific to, you know, how you as a person, like I worked with a wedding photographer down in Victoria. And when she approached me, she said, for some reason, you know, people don't jump on a call with me. And they're shocked by what they come across. Like, she's very scary, and the F bomb gets dropped a lot. So when she started working with me, like her website was, you know, that typical airy fairy romantic language that wedding photographers often use. And so what we did is, again, talk to her clients, what they appreciated about her, a lot of them were creatives, you know, lots of Tad's, they just wanted something different, you know, they didn't want the stock standard. Wedding, they had big plans to be different for all the right reasons. So what we did is totally lean into that point of difference and her website copy, some people would have just gone holy rock, this, and they would have just left. But like she increased our prizes. She's booked out years in advance with all the right people that she actually loves working with. And it's just so powerful. But she needed to hear that from her audience. So she was doubting, you know, am I am I cutting out in our business? Am I going to like struggle, am I going to really get off whatever run off, but the opposite happened. And she was just so confident to lean into it after hearing from our audience that her persona and how she showed up was exactly why they fell in love with her. And we're happy to pay any price tag to have her at their wedding. So it's so powerful to as you know, you know, step up, be bold, and really own who you are as a business owner.

Suzanne Chadwick 36:57
Yeah, I had a similar client where she's a wedding celebrant. And she's swearing as well. And, and by the end of working together, she was in BBA. And I was just like, you know, really knowing her clients. And I think that coming back to what we were talking about before, where sometimes we're like, I work with women who are between the age of this and this and I'm like, That's so boring. I'm like, that's this demographics like that just like doesn't tell me anything. Whereas, you know, for her, I'm like, your clients are hipsters, they live in Brunswick, they drink like bourbon, they have tattoos, they drive Harley's, they've got piercings, like, we know exactly the type of clients and they're not all of our clients. But it was very clear who she was for. And the type of clients that really loved her, her personality, the way in which she did the ceremony. And so yeah, just really leaning into that. So, you know, for anybody listening, if you're like, I have my quirks. You know, we talked about this a few weeks back with Rowena from pretty design where it's like, you gotta lean into your weird, because that is what is going to help you attract the clients who are like, all in on you as well. So I think it's so important in your copy and your branding, you know, just to kind of be like, This is me, like, yeah, if you love it awesome. And if you don't, that's

Nadine Nethery 38:18
okay. Absolutely. And there's, you know, 100 cultures 100 million copywriters. It's like this kind of meet someone for everyone. But it's, how amazing is it? If someone lands on your website and finds your personality and just connect with it on a deeper level, just because they show up authentically, it's something magical. And then once you jump on that call, it's not a sales pitch. It's like, where do I sign, though? It just makes sense your business so much easier. Yeah. And I think

Suzanne Chadwick 38:47
that that's it as well is that when you are authentic, like really authentic. I'm not just talking about the buzzword. But really authentic in whether you swear or not like whether you're, you know, somebody who believes in something specific, I think that it really does mean that you don't have to sell and cause the people that are there and wanting to have a conversation with you and interested in working with you. They're already sold. There already. They're like, You are my person. And I love it when clients like, I listened to the podcast, I looked at your website, and I just knew that you were for me, like I've already made the decision. Like, it's how do we work together? It's not whether we work together. It's like, so what, what am I going to do with you just tell me what I need to know. And which one is right for me and like, let's go. And they're the best. They're the best client goals. How good

Nadine Nethery 39:39
is that? Right? It's just Yeah, I love it. And especially when that happens when, you know, my clients come from struggling to sell and they're just attracting the wrong clients. And it's just all nightmare and misaligned expectations and then that aha moment where they finally have this website and it's doing exactly what it should do and all the time You know, doubts and hesitations I had around really leaning into that weird, as you said, yeah, it's just so good when when people just own who they are. And it just, I think it takes the overwhelm away to, you know, trying to keep up the facade on social media, because it's almost a picture perfect, right? Like, what can keep it up. So once you just show up, you know, that's the true self, you work out why people want to work with you. It just makes it so much so much more. Yeah, more easy.

Suzanne Chadwick 40:29
Yeah, for sure. And I think the only other thing I'd say on it is that when you are in a crowded market, that's the stuff that stands out there as if you do try and look like everybody else, there is no differentiator, there is no reason why someone would come to you over somebody else. So you know, it's actually going to be your biggest asset to fully lean into your weird in a big way. Yeah,

Nadine Nethery 40:53
totally. And leaning onto some of those controversial opinions. Yeah, some of those beliefs as well, like bicep opinion, why do you think it's all bullshit just on it, and, you know, share your take on things and people are, again, either going to resonate with it, or they're going to go home, not my cup of tea,

Suzanne Chadwick 41:17
or anything else we need to think about.

Nadine Nethery 41:20
I'm just being smart about automating the process because you know, you and I, we have kids, we have many hats, we wear earrings. So this should not add a whole bunch of to do's to your, to your, you know, already for weekly schedule. So it's all about integrating strategic questions into, let's say, your onboarding forms, for example. So questionnaires that your clients have to complete anyway, because they need to tell you what they need from you. So I'll just throw in three or four really strategic questions that pick that mindset. You know, that fresh mind said they've just signed on the dotted line? What made you different? Why did they pick you over everyone else? What are they hoping to achieve? what's bugging them right? Now? What's that one problem that they wanted solved. And that would make your your project a success. So add them to questionnaires that you have to, you know, have to bug you or your audience, your customers with anyway. And keep in mind that checking in when things are front of mind. So when something's just happened is much more powerful than checking in six months down the track going remember, we work together on this website and the copy, like, do you remember why you pick me and to remember what was going on in your life before you had your nice website, like it's all to remove. So really, make sure you work out, you know, when you have the biggest impact. So as a copywriter, you know, people love the feeling of fresh copy, like they read the copy for the first time. So really ask again, few 100 questions around that excitement, like what does it feel like to have this problem taken off your hands, but then also, at the same time, work out how long it takes for the work you've done to have impact in their lives or in their business. And then again, check in three months time, so you've had your shiny website, the copy has been working, tell me about the impact it's had on your SEO on your Google rankings on, you know, how many leads you're getting on your bottom line. So really working out the most strategic touch points with your, with your customers. But also, if you have an online course, for example, you can have surveys and touch points as people progress through your course or your program, for example. So rather than having that big survey at the end, after they've been in your program for 12 months, split it up. So if you know, you know, from experience, you know, there's a big aha moment that you know, the penny drops after three months capture that penny that dropped, and that fresh, you know, inside the language, you're using those tangible wins that come with it. So yeah, just take a close look at your offers your services, your courses, how they're supporting your customers, and then automated also schedule those, you know, sequences and the touch points. So you don't have to remember to do the checking in and you don't have to remember to have those conversations because they just happen on autopilot. And then all you have to do is every few weeks to just sit down have a look what came in have a look at you know new surveys and actually just add it to your database of things. Your spreadsheet, however you want to manage it, but your bucket list of desires pinpoints all the things you need to really hone in on your customer in the message and keep refining it.

Suzanne Chadwick 44:40
I'd love to know what what tools are you using for that, like, what are some of the tools that your clients use? What are you using? Yes, I

Nadine Nethery 44:49
use Google Forms. I just like it simple. So Google Form is super powerful because it allows you to have those branching out questions that I was talking about before. So that qualifying questions then lead into specific questions based on that first answer. What else Google Sheets for my insights just because again, it's easy. It doesn't have to be complex, really. And what I also love for capturing insights inside learning portals, I have a few online resources and memberships. So I use pop up boxes in certain modules to just pop up in the moment and link through to surveys to again, not have to send a million emails that never get opened. So it just pops up as they complete the lesson. And then it takes that survey. So just little things to again, just, you know, entice them in the mall when they've just completed it. Just questions. Yeah. So it doesn't have to be tricky, doesn't have to cost a fortune in extra tools. Yeah, likely, you've got all the things you need at your fingertips anyway. Yeah,

Suzanne Chadwick 45:55
yeah, I love that. So just to finish, I just want to, I guess, give a couple of tips there. So you've got your customer survey where you're trying to find insights prior to them working with you say, you've got your new customer surveys, like why they decided to go with you, what made them choose you what their problems were that sort of thing. I love looking at my discovery calls, because I asked a number of questions. And so that really gives me fresh insights into what the problem is that they're coming to me for. And also just finding out where they heard about me. So I understand where my brand is, like kind of converting well, you've got like within a course any aha moments, etc, that they're having throughout it. And then you've got the customer, you know, once they wrap up with you what their takeaways were testimonials. Any other questions? Is there a the main ones? Is there any other checkpoints or sort of points within the customer journey that we should be capturing information from customers?

Nadine Nethery 47:02
Yeah, so they're probably the main ones you can automate. That's why I just love them. They're so powerful, without adding anything to your to your to do list. The other ones I love. Electrical, the missed opportunity surveys, so someone who potentially reached out to you, you know, requested your service guide, however you manage that process. And for whatever reason, they decided not to go with you. So just a one question email will do you know, as in, you know, totally good luck with your project with whatever you're doing. Just curious, you know, what made you go with that other person just so I can, I can refine my processes and learn from, from this experience. So that is super powerful. And it really just comes down to tying them all in. So this one is manual, the other manual one is whenever you're trying to launch a course, so I'm not someone who is a big believer in you know, spending months and months on a cause that you assume people want. If you have an idea sense, check that idea before you go down that rabbit hole. So this is where you know, one off survey comes in super handy where you are testing the waters in online communities. I mean, luckily, if if the course aligns with your existing audience, totally ask them. But you don't have to have that particular audience group lined up. So just since check with your planning the format, they would like to see kind of what it would have to deliver for them to even, you know, be a no brainer to join. So just ask the right questions. And then hopefully, you can even run a beta round. So something that involves the audience in the creation process in exchange for feedback. So just involving your audience, again, having those two way conversations to save you a whole bunch of time energy hits bass down the track in a program that might never have sold anyway. So that is one that I would not skip ever. Yeah,

Suzanne Chadwick 49:05
I love that. Yeah, just validating the idea for sure. Good. Awesome. Anything else we need to know before we wrap? I think we've covered a loss I think it's just yeah,

Nadine Nethery 49:16
just make those conversations a part of your your business processes and never work on assumptions. I think there's so tempted to try and find a shortcut in our in our wake. So assumptions won't serve you in the long run. So the more first cent insights you can get that the better and as I said, you know, those automated surveys they take not long to set up and once you've set them up, it's just generates new insights on autopilot for you without you haven't having to think about it. Really.

Suzanne Chadwick 49:52
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I love that. So go ahead. Amazing. So the Dean Where Can my audience find Do where's the best place to connect?

Nadine Nethery 50:01
Tell us all the things Yeah, so you can track me down on my website can do content.com I also tend to hang out on Instagram my handle there's at can do content and yeah feel free to send me a DM and pick my brain is that you've got more questions around how to integrate audience research and the process into your business.

Suzanne Chadwick 50:24
I love that so, so good. Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing this with us. I definitely think that I need to probably go back over all of my surveys and rejig that you know, as we're listening as your as everybody's listening I'm like, Yeah, okay, that's, I've got mine but I probably need to systemize them a little bit better. So that's gonna be my call to action. Yeah, my to do list thing from this this episode for sure. So thank you so much, really appreciate it.

Nadine Nethery 50:53
Thanks so much for having us.