Suzanne Chadwick 0:00
Hello, lovely, how are you? Welcome back to the podcast, can I just tell you, you should be excited, I'm just going to let you know you should be excited to join me to tell you why. Because I've got some awesome guests lined up that are ready to go. Today I have got my good friend, my client, creative master Marian Piper back on the podcast she's been on before her and I have such awesome conversations. And so she's actually going to be speaking again at the rise retreat, which is coming up in August this year about our creative process where we get stuck and how we can move through it. And we're going to be doing that with everybody that's coming along to the retreat, which I'm excited to do a diving into their creative process. But today, Marian is here. And she's going to be sharing the creative process with you so that you can start to really think about how do I work in this particular area of my creative process? What could I do better? Where do I get stuck? What do I need to be aware of? You know, and I think that's the thing. I say to my clients all the time coaching. And these conversations is about us seeing our own thoughts, our own processes, how we work through things, because I think it's only when you can reflect and see how you work and how you think that you can have the shifts and the moves that you want to have in your business and in your life and in the creative pursuits that you want to have as well. So I am here for this conversation. And I'm so glad you're here today as well. So I hope that you are doing well. And that life is treating you kind how are you? How are you going? You can always send me a DM at Suzanne Chadwick and let me know because I care. And I really value that you're here, I value that you come back, maybe this is your first time if it is welcome, you know, but I do value your time. And I love that I am in your earbuds on a regular basis, as well. So if there's anything you want me to talk about, then I am ready to talk about it. And recently, I kind of had a bit of a brand upgrade where we kind of, we've got some new images, we've got a new vibe. And I really felt like it was time for my brand to grow up a little bit as well, which I am going to be talking about on the podcast here too. And so with the podcast, it's always been super practical. I do love practical, but you know, I love the mindset stuff as well. And how we can shift our energy, how we can be magnetic, how we can manifest the things that we want. Because I think at the end of the day, if you have a stellar mindset where you are always getting better at being self reflective and being able to shift yourself through, then you will do something so much more in your business. You know, when we feel stuck in our business, so often, it's us that is making us stuck. And so that's why I think this is really important, because you won't market yourself as well as you want. If you don't have the right mindset, you won't build a brand that's magnetic if you don't have the right mindset to kind of love and live into what it is you do and what you're here to do. But anyway, I can just talk about this all day. But this is a mega episode. So I'm gonna keep this short and sweet. And I absolutely want to do Baron justice just because she's a friend, this might be the first time that you're actually connecting with her and listening to her. And so I wanted to make sure I shared her bio with you as well. So if you're looking for practical creativity, for big ideas, then Dr. Marian Piper is your go to gal as a creativity coach and copywriter. She supports creative entrepreneurs to become their most creative selves so they can communicate their world changing ideas with confidence and passion. Marianne believes that everyone is creative. Yes, even you. And in a world where everyone sounds the same. Choosing the right words is the best way to stand out. Having traveled the world and completed a swag of degrees, including a PhD. Marian is here to inspire you to stop imitating everyone else and start using your own voice for real. So on that note, let's dive into this week's episode. Marian Welcome back to the brand It is lab podcast. You're like a regular guests these days. I am part of your digital furniture.

Dr Marion Piper 5:08
I love it's because you've got the goods. It's because we've always got great conversations and topics and things like that. So welcome back what's been happening? Oh, thanks for having me. First of all, honestly, and you know, maybe a lot of people can relate to this not much has been happening, because I've been a sick snotty mess. The last month or so has just been I went I got what what you would call Fleur Rona. So we just went from the flew straight into Rona. But now we're here and were back on top of the mountain, surveying the landscape, reminding ourselves, yes, I can do the things.

I know it is winter here in Melbourne. And it has been a never ending thing. But but we're back. We're back. I feel like we're both back. I was very sick after huddle that kids had the flu. We all had COVID. The joy is the joy is it's so good. Hashtag living, am I right?

Suzanne Chadwick 6:11
Awesome. So listen, we were chatting about what we're going to talk about today. And I know that you're sort of shifting your business a lot as well. I mean, you've been a creativity coach for a long time now while stepping into stepping into it more these days as well. And I'm very excited you ran an amazing, the feedback was so epic, you ran an amazing workshop at the rise retreat, which was in February. And you're going to be running another session for us at the next writer's retreat on a different topic. And we're going to be talking about creative process and how we bring our ideas to life and those sorts of things. And so whilst we're going to be going into it in a different way at retreat, I wanted to get you on the podcast to talk about this concept as well. So how did you come up with what we're talking about today? Is unpacking the creative process and all the steps that you go through? How did you discover this process?

Dr Marion Piper 7:14
Yeah, so. Oh, my gosh, it is something that I think inherently is actually comes to us quite naturally. And so and that's also why I think we end up getting blocked too, it's because creativity is so inherent in so in a way that oftentimes we take it for granted. And we might forget or jump over a step. Or as I like to say, put the horse before the cart. So for me, it's really been over my whole lifetime, I've been practicing this, I think I've always been a creative person I've always identified as creative, capital C creative. And really, it was when I was at uni that I got the opportunity to sit in the space of creativity. And take the time that's required to understand each step, what you need to do, how it feels, and then also how to move yourself from one to the other. Because I think there are certain certain things, certain feelings, certain emotions that pop up at each stage. And if you don't recognize them, you can actually get stuck really easily. So for me, it's been a process. Ironically, it's been a birth over the particularly since starting my business in 2019, of really thinking about and customizing this process, to the kind of work that I want to bring about. And so while what we're talking about today, well, it will be kind of a high level, really easy to understand, creative process. And what I really like to do with my clients is then get down into the nitty gritty and look at where they usually get tripped up. And then creating some tools and offering some practices around how you can unblock yourself at the stages where you just you've kind of go on autopilot, and you might forget. So it's really bringing an awareness to not just what we're creating and the vision we have for what we're creating, but also to how we create, because I think I've at least I've observed a lot in business. You know, there's a lot of talk about strategies and, you know, sales, but the actual creation side of thing. It's like, how do I come up with this package? How do I execute on this concept? That's the part that I think gets the least amount of attention. I love it. So good. Yeah. And I think that that creation phase, like even just before we got on the podcast, like just spending, we were talking a little bit about it, like spending time actually allowing ourselves to work out what we think, like what we want to say how we want to teach what we want to do. And I think that sometimes we don't give our sells enough of that space and that time and I've always found that the things that have kind of blown my mind as well as my clients or my audiences, mine is the stuff that I really sat and said to myself, how could this be different? Like, what could that process be of me creating something birthing something new, to be able to talk about when it comes to what I do and what I talk about, and my clients and all of those things? Yeah, for sure. And I think there is this myth that the creative process is only for artists. And while Yeah, right. But it's really like, all we're talking about is it's really the way that our ideas, our products, and thinking is brought to life. Right? So when I talk about this, the you know, the creative process, I'm using a small c creative in that it is something that it's not necessarily about being artistic, or about producing something that has a cultural value, I suppose you'd say. But it's really around, like, how do I get this idea from, you know, moment of germination right through to the tree growing? And yeah, it's, it's fascinates me because there are a lot of different ways to go about it. Depending on which context you're in, right, so whether you're, you know, you could use this in your business life absolutely doesn't matter if you run your own business or not, if you're an employee having a solid creative process. And it also allows you to, to really justify your creative decisions to people because you can demonstrate where you've come from. And that's really what it's about to, it's about understanding your journey through this all, and then taking people along on that journey, too. And being really explicit about the system that you use. And that's what I think at least I know, I'm super fascinated with the behind the scenes and like, show me your thinking like how, like, Where were you when you came up with this idea? Because all of that stuff, I think, can give you an incredible amount of energy and motivation when you're struggling on your own. Yeah, love it. So good. Awesome. So let's dive in then. So we're going to be going through the six stages in the creative process. So kick us off. Yeah, so I'll give you just a quick overview. And so I've basically synthesized a bunch of different research and academic papers and things. And these are sort of the overarching six stages that I've decided to articulate. So first one is inspiration. The second one is incubation, stage three, Revelation, love that word, stage four, evaluation, stage five, creation, and then stage six, liberation. And so from the get go, I want you to understand that the goal of a sustainable creative process is flow, we want to get ourselves into that really juicy state, where we don't have any distractions where we are completely tapped in, and very present with what we're trying to create. So that's the goal, I don't want you to focus on perfection, or I don't want you to start really with the end in mind. This is about handing yourself over to each stage, one after the other one at a time.

Suzanne Chadwick 13:26
So that you can actually reap the most benefits from the creative process. I love it. So good. And I do have to say, Marian has given me epic show notes. So you will want to go over and check out the show notes for this episode as well, where she's kind of laid it all out for you. So if anybody that's like, but what was that one?

Dr Marion Piper 13:47
Again, it's all there. So I think that's, I think that that's so good. And so let's start with the inspiration number one. Yeah, so yeah, and also once a copywriter always a copywriter. Okay, so inspiration. So this is really our light bulb moment. This, this first stage of the creative process, it can happen really quickly. It's where ideas are born. But I want you to know that they don't just come out of thin air, even though it might feel like that. ideas happen as you collide with people, objects and other ideas, every single idea every single day, when you're out and about in the world. So this is really where you can let your brain go wild. It's it's where you gather your information. It's where you get inspired. You take notes, you make mood boards, lists, photos, you print things, stick them against the wall, like this is really just about being in that first space of discovery. And so one of the things that I find with this space too is it's a really good time and opportunity to find some creative mentors so people that are creating work that inspires you, people that are talking about things that you want to tap into. And so, for me at the moment, as I'm building out this creativity coaching side of my business, I'm really drawing on two people, which are Eric maicel, and Father Bronx, and they're my groceries, everything that they say, I am just like, take me to church. I'm just like. So this is that kind of energy we want to bring to this inspiration phase. Yeah, I love that. And it was interesting. I was interviewing Bridey from Merrymakers, she's got like a fiber fiber and cotton type business. And I just said to her, like, where did it come from? And she said, I just observed, like, I was just observing, like, if I want this, I'm sure there's other people that want this. And now it's like this massive business. And I just think that's, that's such an interesting phase. Because I just think, you know, so often, we don't observe enough. I think we like, I don't know, life's too busy. And we're just going, I mean, sometimes just even stopping, like we were talking about earlier, like, when you stop and you think and you, like, really wonder what, what are how else can I say this? What else can I do? And I think that this inspiration and ideas is when we observe, and we stop, and we listen, and we take stuff in that it kind of becomes a bit of a melting pot for Yeah, inspiration and new ideas to come as well. And I just sort of think that even when you were talking about the people who you really love, like for me, there's certain people where I always listen. And when I kind of listened to different people, it inspires new thoughts within me, based on what I hear, but then putting it through my own filter of like, that's amazing what they said, like, how does that apply to my clients? Or how does that apply to me? Or how else could I talk about that in a different way? That's maybe, you know, aligned with my story as well. And so I think that yeah, being an observer, I think is such a, such an important thing for us to make time to do. I totally agree. And I think the danger of hustle culture, which is what you're talking about, is that we tend to blow past the observation phase, and go straight into problem solving, which you're actually doing yourself a great disservice by not allowing your idea to incubate, which is the next step. But the thing that I wanted to tell you was, I remind people is speaking of being an observer, yes, observe what's happening around you, but also observe what's happening within you. And to think of your brain as kind of like a night sky. And you have all of these stars and planets and dots and things happening. And what your brain is doing when it's being creative, is it's not really bringing anything out of nowhere, but it's making new connections between things that might not necessarily always go together. And so start to think about the creative moment, as How can I bring things together in new and interesting ways. And I find that that often takes a lot of the pressure off having to come up with, you know, groundbreaking, original idea.

So good. Yeah. And I mean, I think at the end of the day, these kind of things are inspired by other things. Like, as you said, that don't ask me why. But Airbnb came to mind. I've listened to their story many times. And it was just like, people needed somewhere to stay. No hotels were available, we have a house. Like it's kind of like an observation. It's like inspiration. It's putting, joining the dots like, interesting. Let's give that a go. Let's see how that works. And I just think there was so many, so many examples of inspired ideas. And I love them. I love them. So good. Yeah. And so what we tend to see what I tend to see here are the common blocks at this stage, overthinking so people just forcing it, trying too hard to brainstorm, you know, then equally the opposite under thinking, not creating space to explore all the potential possibilities like that, really letting your mind go wild. And then the third one, which always cracks me up is this idea of regurgitation. So it's when people just literally just take someone else's idea and start talking it out or start writing content around it. And you can tell from a mile away that they have not put any thought into it. So they're just three things to have been mindful of when you're in that first ideation phase. And so, potentially a few ideas of how to unblock. If you are if you find yourself over on the thinking particularly creative creating a ritual to to sort of kick yourself into that ideation mode, and I sort of recommend anything sensory, so it might be like your fresh coffee.

Feeling it might be candles, a bunch of flowers, your favorite tunes a particular space. So this idea of attaching like, Okay, I'm in creative mode now because I have all of these things around me that are signifiers, that that is what I need to do now. So it's definitely one that I tap into a lot. And then another one, which is one of my favorite things that you always say, which is this idea of lock in and block it, particularly for creative thinking. So if you're in a position where you need to come up with ideas all the time, definitely having regular creative thinking will train your brain to recognize that Oh, on Fridays at 10am, this is when we go into idea mode. But you can also do that for your personal life as well to through, say, a journaling practice. So I do that in the first thing in the morning, and then my brain knows the second I open that book and touch that paper, it's go time.

Suzanne Chadwick 20:54
Love that.

Dr Marion Piper 20:56
And then one other thing is this idea around constraints. So if you've tend to find that you're someone who gets really overwhelmed with all the ideas, set some constraints. So for example, if you're a designer, just create one a4 mood board, not 12. If you're if you're looking for a concept, when you're researching something, maybe only do it for half a day instead of a week, you know. So creativity thrives in constraints. So if you can just pop it all into just put some boundaries, or some you know, bumper bars along what you're doing, it'll just help you stay a little bit focused and not get stuck. Yeah, I find that with models, like I'm kind of like, like less is more. Because I just think, because I love them. Models go I love a good model. Like if I'm trying to explain something if I can't explain it in kind of five points, or so I'm overcomplicating it. And also, if I can't explain it in five or so points, then also I'm going to find it hard to communicate it and for it to be something people remember and can implement easily. And so I do try and you know, keep things contained. Otherwise it could be like and the 20 different points I want to share with you. Like I could easily go there, but I try and be a bit more constrained with it for ease memorability great communication of the idea as well. Yes, absolutely. And I would hazard a guess and stay say that's because you've done stage two, which is the incubation stage of the creative process, right? You are a big juicy ideas, chicken. So this is the marination phase, you've just spent all this time with your ideas. In the inspiration phase, you've gathered, gathered notes, you've made mood boards. Now, this is really where you want to sit in it and bake. So the challenge here is knowing when you've consumed enough inspiration to then dip into incubation. But I feel like that's a very intuitive process, you'll kind of know in your gut, you'd be like, Ah, I'm kind of sick of looking at things right now. And that's the point at which is you take a step back. And it might not feel like you're actually doing too much in this phase. It's because it's your subconscious that's doing all the work. So this, this phase can actually be quite a long phase, depending on the scope of what you're trying to create. It might take days, weeks, months, or even years for an idea to fully germinate. So it's really important in this stage to slow down and not Russia, which can feel a bit counterintuitive, especially when you've had that first big hit of inspiration. So you kind of go like pow like a rocket and then you know, when the rocket gets through the atmosphere, then it just floats. So it's kind of kind of like visually what we're trying to do here. Yeah. And I love this. I love this phase. Because like, let you know, speaking of less is more. This is really where you tap into those practices that allow you to be still because you want your brain to just connect those dots for you. And I guarantee if you try to force it, you'll just regurgitate something you've already seen. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really interesting because you, I almost feel like, I'm sure you do this with your whole creative processes. Like, even as I think of like my programs and things like that. It's like, I have the big creation, incubation, like sort of phase or the inspiration, and I build it, but then I kind of go back into inspiration incubation, as well like on an ongoing basis. So I feel like you kind of have the inspiration you create and you kind of get through that. But I feel like with some things, it's just an ongoing evolution of that as well. Like I keep going back into it and then coming back out. Oh, for sure. And, and this is the thing like we're talking about the creative process as if it's a linear thing. I've just numbered it to make to i to show you what the different parts of it are. But it's really, it's really a networked experience. So if you think of these six stages as more just like points on a map, and you can travel between them, depending on what you need, like it's and oftentimes, like you're saying, you might be working on something, but then you get it gives you this heat of inspiration for something else that you're doing. And so the skill that you can hone over time is the ability to manage multiple of these phases going on at once. Because, yeah, we're an organic being and our brains are constantly working. And you don't know. And this is the most exciting part, I think, is that you just don't know when that click when things are going to click into place for something. And usually it happens when you're working on something else, which is so annoying.

Suzanne Chadwick 25:54
But that's two o'clock in the morning. Oh my god. Yeah. Literally last night, I was lying in bed trying to get to sleep. It was like 1130. And all of a sudden, this tagline came into my head for one of my clients. And I was like, right. Write that down. It was all cozy and warm. But you know, this is what when you when you've been working in this space, and you have the process that you do all the time, when you let go and allow the ideas to incubate. That's often how it happens. Because your brain will be like, Oh, I got it. Here it is, you know? Yeah. Yeah, love a bit of speculation, incubation percolation, all those words.

Dr Marion Piper 26:35
And so unfortunately, though, this is the stage, when we tend to see a lot of these really icky feelings come up, particularly impostor syndrome, you might hear questions like, Is my idea of any good? Why can't I figure this out? It's taking too long. Don't don't end on repeat. You might also feel yourself getting really impatient with your own brain frustrated with like, come on, like, I've just given you all this information, like why can't we figure this out? You know? And then the other thing to keep an eye on is this idea of mistrust. So you might start to question your own capability, like, am I the right person to bring this thing to life. Or you might even start to distrust the process and go, Oh, have I missed something, Have I done something wrong? It's not your fault. This is just the nature of the beast, this is how your brain works is just trying to keep you safe. So

things that you can do at this stage to really alleviate some of that pressure, all your meditation and mindfulness practices, anything that will allow you to really ground down in your body, to be still to just let your brain worry about what it needs to worry about, I think is a really good thing to tap into at this at this point. And the other thing too, particularly from a neuroscience perspective, is getting enough sleep. Because Dr. Andrew Huberman who's a neuroscientist, I also draw a lot on his research for this stuff.

Our brains, neuroplasticity actually happens when we sleep. So if you constantly focusing on what you're trying to create, you're stressing yourself out, you're not getting enough sleep, you're not gonna get anywhere. So it sounds again, a lot of this stuff will sound counterintuitive. But the idea is that if you let it go, and just trust that you have everything that you need to connect the dots and to bring this thing to life, you'll be able to get more sleep, and when you get quality sleep, your brain will actually be able to do its job. Yeah, I love that. And I mean, I spoke about this on how to increase your energy as a business owner, which you're talking about as well, which is, you know, sleep and eating and exercise and just like fueling our body to perform at its peak. And I think it's so I think it's something that we don't talk about enough. And I know that it's yeah, definitely something that I've been thinking about a lot more as well. Like, it's not just about sitting and working and doing, but it's actually about am I creating a space and a body that houses this brain and looking after it in a way that allows me to actually achieve the things that I want and create the things that I want in the way that I want as well. So I think that yeah, that's so, so important. Just another reiteration of that message for every Yeah, I mean, if you know if machines could do creativity, don't you think we would have figured that out by now? Like, there's a reason why that's that, that this this process, is a human process is because that's what we do. We are creators, we have we create this entire reality, you know, if you want to get a bit woowoo about it. So we're not machine, we're actually you know, living, breathing being. And, you know, we have as much as we like to think, as our ego likes to tell us that we're special. And I don't need set eight hours of sleep. And like, actually, you do. So let's just like, let's just treat ourselves with kindness, particularly in this incubation phase, because you want to give your brain as you know, the time and the space, it needs to be able to make that new and exciting connection. Because then that will generally be something that's very specific to you, and very organic, because it'll be based on your memories, your experience, what you love, and not what the world is telling you who you need to be. Yeah. And I find that when I'm tired as well, I like I struggle. I come in struggle straight, like my brain does not work. I procrastinate. I have the negative thoughts. So it makes a big difference to like, how you show up for sure. Yeah, and we need more rest than we currently give ourselves. Which is heartbreaking. To think that we don't prioritize that, you know, and it's really, it's the simple stuff that will allow you to go further, I think, particularly when it comes to creativity. I'm a sleeper just gonna say that I know you are too. I'm asleep. I'm like when I go to bed past 10 o'clock, and I'm up at maybe like maybe five or seven. Those are my two times. But yeah, if I get out of bed at five, I'm bouncing, like I am, like ready to go. I feel like my buddies like we're done. Let's go. Yeah. Which is nice. tank is full. Let's let's hit the road. Yeah, so good. Awesome. So we've, we've gone through, we've gone through our inspiration stage, we've gone through our incubation stage.

What's next? This is this is probably my favorite. Revelation. So everyone loves this. It's the aha moment. It's the Eureka, I've struck gold. And any of all those metaphors.

Unknown Speaker 32:08
The interesting thing, though, that that I found is that often we confuse this stage with the first one of inspiration. But the difference is, is that stage one is often loud, like that first hit of inspiration is often I know, I find it's a big jump through my whole body. It's like, Oh, I've got this, I've got this momentum, it's like pushing me forward, right? But revelation, I say nine times out of 10, it's going to be a really quiet whisper. It is going to be that moment when your brain has finally found in its Rapidex of of answers. The one that matches up with this one that you've told it is really, really important. So oftentimes, this revelation can actually be really, really quick. So stage three is often really, really fast. And what and what it's telling you is it's giving you a green light, it's like okay, now is the time to act, we are ready to go. I've got all the information I need. I really want you to get into creation mode.

Suzanne Chadwick 33:07
Awesome. So good. I love the aha moments. They are so good. Like yeah, like when I was when I was creating for the huddle. I was just like, I knew that I had the ideas. But he didn't have the words. And when they came I was like, so exciting. It's amazing when it hits when you finally kind of get to that the revelation? Yeah, so Oh, yeah. When it when it lands, it lands Yes. And it is so satisfying. It's like scratching an itch on in the middle of your back, you're just like, Oh, got it. However, if you don't get that aha moment, there are a few other emotions that can often come to take its place. So and these are common blocks that I often see ignorance. So if people are too busy, you know, doing anything else, then this idea, they'll often miss the opportunity of hearing that quiet, quiet voice or feeling that intuitive hit when it's come through. And that goes back to our first point around making the space and the time to think and to really allow your brain to mull over the idea. So this is a very, very passive, the revelation is quite passive as it you're just sitting there waiting and allowing it to arrive. So it's really about receiving and not forcing. And so distraction is the enemy of a revelation. So if you are too busy, you won't hear it and you'll you'll dismiss it. And then the third one is if when you when you do finally hear it, insecurity can land and you might be like oh like is that it or, you know, you might not fully back yourself and your idea out of a fear of what people might think. And being being a people pleaser. Are is the absolute worst identity to have at this point. Because what you'll, what you'll then do is be like, well, so and so did it better, or they've already said that or, you know, this person I follow. They said it better than I ever could. But that's not the point, right? That's not the point, we want to get you in flow, we want to get whatever is inside of you out into the world in a way that makes sense for you, and for your audience. So I think it's really this, this this oftentimes, while this is the quickest stage, it's often the one where people struggle the most, because they just waiting in a waiting, waiting and not listening, not listening. Not. Yeah, and I think the distraction thing is a big one. Like, I think that, yeah, like, just like I say to my kids, just be bored. Like, just, just allow yourself to be bored, don't be honest screen, don't be watching TV, don't be chatting with friends, like just allow yourself to just be. And I think that, you know, for me when I go for a walk, and I'm not listening to a podcast, which I find really hard, like I do kind of find, like, I want to be listening to something I want to be inspired, I want to learn something and I just think sometimes I'll just go for a walk and I'll have my headphones, I'll put them in my pocket. But I'm like, just just pay just allow the silence in your brain. Because that's when ideas come, that's when the AHA has come. That's when we kind of allow the space for Yeah, our creativity and our mind to kind of go, hey, check out what I just did.

Dr Marion Piper 36:39
I Oh, absolutely. And I think part of it is to there is a, I think plays into that is that there's a fear of being seen or a fear of actually expressing what you want. Because I think that there's, it's so easy to get, like I say, put in a podcast, it's so easy to ride on the coattails of other people's ideas, especially, you know, we spend so much time online, so much, we're exposed to so many ideas from the second, we wake up to the second we go to bed at night. And it's chat, it is a real challenge. We live in a culture that's built on distracting us from our purpose, you know, and so it really is an act of rebellion, to not listen to the podcast to unfollow a bunch of people who are in your industry. And it's really rebellious to sit with yourself and say, What do I actually think? What do I believe in? What is it about this particular idea that excites me so much? You know, I think oftentimes, the focus is on money and productivity and the end result, but it's like, what actually lets you up. Because, like, I can guarantee it, if you are not excited about what you were doing, you won't do it. Yeah, you know, and you can't get excited about something unless you actually sit in that space and allow that emotion to bubble up. You know. So, you know, like we've said a couple of times already, you know, create a little bit more space in your day to allow these things to arrive.

Another thing that you can do if you if you struggle to hear that inner voice or you feel a bit disconnected from your intuition, started journaling practice. Because when you ask yourself the right questions, the answers are there. I guarantee it. Like if you sit and you ask yourself, helped me solve this problem. And you listen and you sit in that space, what you need will arrive and I ended up those kinds of practices tend to go right out the window when you start a business. Because the I think a lot of the language around business, and it's starting to change, but a lot of the language is really that push masculine. Like, go go forward, forward figure, Figure, tinker, tinker. That's not what we're trying to do here. We're just trying to hear the idea in its form, in the form that it wants to take. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting, because I just think, like you said, it is definitely a culture at the moment like Create, Create, Create, consume, consume, consume. Yep. Yeah. And if you're not create, if you're not creating, what are you doing? You're consuming, you know, and there's, there needs to be a third side of that triangle. Right, which is, which is just boredom. I think. I think that's the Yeah, just just not not doing one or the other, but allowing and listening and maybe it's the observation piece, right. Yeah, creation observe. We have to find another say, we need to consume our alcohol. Well think about, allow my brain to tinker on that. So I love that. It's so good. Yeah. And I just think, I just think it's so important for us to be able to do that and not constantly feel the pressure. And I do think we still need to create I think it's good to connect seemed to get inspiration but I think it's about I can never say this word marry and you'll have to say like compartmentalized is that I feel like I never ever pronounced that right. compartmentalized part mentalize. Like apart. No, compartmentalize. That's hilarious. Yeah, like we just we don't really focus in on on that on just allowing ourselves to have that space and be able to say I'm not going to consume, I'm not going to create, I'm just going to be. And by being I know that all of the stuff that I want to do all this stuff I want to create, that's how it happens by me giving myself that space. Yeah, absolutely. And that's why we're, we're breaking this process down into distinct phases. So that if you have spent, if you found yourself, you know, you're really inspired, you've, you know, let the idea incubate for a little while, then you can actually announce to yourself to your community to your, you know, source higher power, whatever, I am ready for a revelation, and see what happens, you know, you can actually ask, you can ask for what you want to receive. And we're just something that I struggle with. But when I do go forward in this in this phase with that intention of I want to know the answers, I want that revelation I want, I want my idea to be illuminated, like show me what it is, then it generally arrives pretty quickly. And that's why this part of the phase is quick, really quick, because you focusing on it, and you're allowing it, you know, manifesting the answer, right, if we think about it, in terms of manifestation. But this, once you have your revelation, amazing, best feeling ever.

This is this is the tricky part, for some people, depending on how much you how brutal you are with killing your darlings, because stage four is all about evaluation. So this year, it's where it's it is where you have to be a little bit a little bit brutal, you know, it's time to validate your ideas and your approach. Because spoiler alert, you can't do every single idea, and nor should you not every idea is worth pursuing. And it's really not about crushing your dreams or telling you no, but it's really about you want to push put your ideas through a pressure test, Master Chef language by asking, and you want to ask the right question. So you mentioned it really early on Sue's about the questions that you tend to ask when you're when you're in inspiration phase, bring those back at this point, once you've pulled together your idea, and you've started, you know, starting to map out the way forward. Because asking the right questions at this point is really crucial. Because again, we don't want to we don't want to kill the idea. We don't want to upset ourselves. But basically, we just want to find out like, is this the right time to do this thing? You know, is this the right thing for me? That kind of thing. And so what I what I see at this, at this stage a lot in the evaluation phase is avoidance. So a lot of people tend to not test the idea, or ask any questions about it, they just go ahead and do it. So there's no evaluation or validation. self doubt can come up a lot here too. So instead of questioning the idea, here, start questioning yourself. Not ideal. And then the third one that we don't talk about a lot in the creative process, but I think is really important is grief. So at this point, and maybe even before this point, you've had to abandon or shelve other ideas that came up in the process, ideas, approaches, channels, formats, whatever. And grief is, you know, it's about loss. And so at this point, you might want to actually stop and acknowledge and say, wow, like, look how far I've come, you know, all of all of these phases, you know, the inspiration of other people, like I acknowledge how valuable that was to me, you know, but I can't do this part of this project right now, because I don't have the time, the energy or the resources, but really giving a bit of space to that grief and loss, because it'll allow you to let go of what you don't need. Because I do see, people tend to hold on to every idea, because they're like, I came up with this. It's really important, you know, but it doesn't help you finish the one idea that you're working on.

Like it just makes it harder because your bandwidth is taken up by thinking about 7000 Different things that might be related. That might not be Yeah, I feel like like when you talk about that I feel like I go back four years or so or three years where I called Half of my business. And that was a really painful process. Like I remember when I closed my Facebook group, which had about 4000 people in it, I like was really emotional when I closed it. Because you do you invest so much in, like everything that you put into it and you had all these ideas, and they were great and you loved them. But you just know, you've got to let them go like in order for you to evolve and move forward. And for you to create what you really want. That is such a and sometimes we can hold on to it for a really long time. Like, I feel like I held on for six months more than what I should have. Because it was such a painful process to coal, all the stuff that I built and loved and put so much joy and energy into. Yeah, that kind of that's what it made me think of when you said, like letting go of that it's, and I think that a lot of business owners, a lot of a lot of times we hold on to things that don't serve us anymore, whether it's a new idea or something we've created in the past. That was right at the time. But I think that, you know, this is where you're talking about, it's more of a map where you go backwards and forwards. Like I think evaluation is such an important thing on a regular basis, within our business just to check in with our intuition check in with our energy ourselves to say, Does this ideas still serve me? Does it still serve my audience? Yeah, and I am, you know, as a creative, one of the one of the hardest parts about evaluation is letting go of clients. You know, maybe you because you invest so much creative energy in their business, in both the work that you produce, but also the ideas that you give just so freely, you know, and that's I shared this meme yesterday that was like, It's wild about growth, hey, you just one day, you just wake up, and you just have absolutely hate everything you used to love.

Unknown Speaker 47:02
And that's how it can feel. That's how this evaluation process can feel. Because you've changed and you've grown and the priorities have shifted. And this idea, whatever you're trying to bring to life, it demands a different version of you. And so, we as well, as we hold on to all ideas, we also hold on to all parts of ourselves. So, you know, some questions that you could ask maybe at this point, to unpick a bit of that is, you know, will this new idea challenge me? You know, has this idea been done before? If so, what can I add to it? Or what can I improve? Because remember, we don't have to, you know, reinvent the wheel, but we can also amplify what other people are doing, and put our own twist on it, you know? And then the third one is really like Will I in actually enjoy working on this? You know, so depending on depending on where you're at in life, and what's happening in your personal life, maybe, you know, could be the most amazing idea, and you absolutely love it. But personally, it's not the right time. And this was really what I faced when I did my PhD and I had all of this incredible research and these ideas and things. And I came out of that process. And I was just so burnt out and recovering from the grief of losing my mom that I was like, I just can't I can't do this, I know that this is what my life is gonna be. I know what this is my life's work. But I just need some time off. And and it's taken me till now. So it's been like five years, till I was able to have the strength to come back to it. So just know that if you evaluate an idea, and now is not the right time, it doesn't mean never. But it might mean like could be a decade from now that it comes up again. And you're like, yes. And it's so easy to action. Right? Yeah, I love that. And I think I do think that, yeah, we can come back to things like it is like not now. And I feel like some of my audience, you know, especially when you're in those early days of motherhood, where they've got all the inspiration for the business, they've got all these ideas. They need a 50 more hours in the week, but they've got like a two and a five year old and I get to have this conversation with them all the time. It's like that deep desire to like do more. But now it just may not be the season for it. And it's not to say that you won't be able to win. It's not to say that you can't do it, but it is just looking at, you know, where am I in my life? And does this idea serve me now? It's not to say it has to go away or I'm going to abandon it. But maybe it's something I can come back to when I'm in a different space for it.

Suzanne Chadwick 49:36
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that rings true for everybody, you know, and I and it is it is a mix and it's a very personal decision. Right? So I would encourage you at that point when you're evaluating only to get the the trusted opinions of somebody that is really close to you. And I wouldn't ask more than two or three people because then you start to get too many other You know, too many other cooks in the kitchen, Master Chef. Many cooking analogies from Marian she's obsessed with MasterChef at the moment. Honestly, like, you want to watch the creative process in action in 45 minutes, please watch that show. Anyway, I'm sorry, you can also watch Marian stories where she like, gives the creative process. I love it.

Dr Marion Piper 50:24
Um, okay, so stage five, is you notice how I haven't even talked about actually doing or making the thing until stage five, because there's a whole bunch of other things that need to happen before that. So our stage five is creation. And this is it's the time to get to work. And this stage, just from the get go, it's powered by mistakes and failures. It's prototypes, it's sketches, its drafts, its content, the tanks, its launches that fail, like, it's all of it. So like, embrace every emotion that comes up, because you're gonna get the whole spectrum here. You might nail it on the first go. Probably not. But, you know, you might also throw lots of versions of your creation into the bin. So I encourage you at this stage to be really generous with your time and space. And to iterate, iterate, iterate, and just to keep going until, again, you get almost like a mini revelation within this creation stage. That tells you, okay, I can't work on this anymore. I'm ready to let it go.

Yeah, so go ahead. And I think that, you know, we do have to embrace it all, because you're right, like, I just don't think and I'm sure somebody else said it, I didn't. But you can't get to the success of that or the failure. Like it's all the failure that allows you to learn and evaluate and then come back to a different iteration of the creation. And I think it's just you should just expect it as well. And I think that's the one thing that I say to clients lot is that we, we have to be okay in the failure, and not make it personal. Because it's part of the process. Yeah, and this is where you can really look to the artists for inspiration on this, right. And you see someone who's creating a painting, you know, they oftentimes they'll do hundreds and hundreds of sketches until they get the composition, right. And then then they might move into like figuring out what the color palette is. And they'll get, you know, and you know, basically my entire Instagram is just following shifts and artists. Because they show you they show you, they're like, Oh, I wanted to use this particular green, but when I put it next to this particular red, it just looks awful. So I mixed up a new color green, and that looks amazing, you know, so it's not just being like really pigheaded about it and being like, the first, the first thing I do is the only thing I do. It's like no, like, allow yourself the uncomfortable luxury of experimentation. And that's really what this stage is about. So things that might happen along the way to keep your eyes peeled for exhaustion tends to pop up a lot. So burning the candle at both ends in the pursuit of perfection. Oh, Grace, rest, rest, rest, hesitation. So not wanting to go all in and do the work that's required for greatness. So not committing in the first place. And then the third part is people pleasing, thinking too much about your audience thinking too much about the people that you creating this work for, you know, it has to be a 5050 split has to be 50% You and 50% them. So, some things to think about here. One of my favorite quotes is from my PhD supervisor, Dr. Lexie Lessig, she said, when you work when you can work, rest when you can rest. So, if that means and you know, this was probably a really good mantra for a lot of the mums out there, when when Bobby's sleeping, get to work, if you can, you know, if you've got a burst of energy at four in the morning, do it, you know, letting let go of the schedule of that and like that old nine to five corporate schedule in your brain and just go, I am going to design my creative practice. So my process around my energy levels rather than the way the world works. And even that small shift, you might you may it may take you a little bit longer to get the thing done, but it'll be so much more sustainable. Yeah. And I actually was I quoted Grant Cardone the other day whether you like him or not, doesn't matter, but that he he says people don't fail, because they don't do the work. They fail because they underestimate the amount of work required. And so when you Yeah, I loved it. I was like that's so true. And when you when you've got hesitation, not wanting to go all in and do the work required for greatness. I think that that's it we kind of we give something we put something out there once that one time on a Tuesday at 10 o'clock. that everybody knows about, you know, and we're like, ah, what, like it didn't work, like nothing worked. And you just give up so quickly. And I think that also, from a creation perspective, going back to the artists, you know, the first 100 paintings, the first 50 paintings that they do, may, may never have sold, but they didn't give up, like, we've kept going, getting better evolving it. And I just think in business is exactly the same. Like we, you know, so many failures, so many things that have happened, but you just have to really believe. And I think that's such a big one, like really believing wholeheartedly, in that process of, like, I'm gonna make it happen. And I always think back, like, daring and disruptive by Lisa messenger was, you know, it was the 89th, or the 88th meeting where she got to, yes, how many of us would be willing to go to ad eight meetings and get nose and keep going? And I'm just like, I just think that that's, you know, it's the long game. And when somebody's like, Well, why would I start a podcast? Because, like, there's so many people and you know, who won't? Who knows how long? You know, I'll have it. But it's like, how long are you planning on being in business? Like, there's not like, we're in it for the long haul, aren't we? So it's okay for us to have lots of things that we try and we create, and it's just about putting in that work. For greatness for to make it better? Yeah, gosh, yeah, I mean, this, there's so many things I could say to that, but the one, I'm going to distill it down into this idea of devotion, right? Be devoted to your ideas, your your this is this iteration, this version of this idea, you're only going to get it in this form once. So why not give it that sacredness, treat it with the respect that it deserves, and match its energy, you know, like, up until this point, the idea has been fueling you. But this at this stage for this is this tip, it tips over and now you have to be the one to drive it, you are the vessel for this idea. And not only do you have to treat yourself with that same kindness, but you also have to treat that idea with reverence, you know, that this is the thing that is going to change something in the world, you know, I am adding this thing, whether it's, you know, I want, it's going to make the world more beautiful, or it's going to make the world more accessible, you know, you have to tap into an emotion behind it. And then also understand your birthright as a creator, you know, that is that is the identity that you can tap into, like I am, I was born to do this, you know, on a really simple level. And part of that, too, is really falling in love with the process, not the destination. So, yes, it can be great to think, oh, when I've done this course, or whatever, I'm gonna make this money and do that. It's like, yeah, cool, maybe. But also, like, get some love and invest some energy into the making, because then it won't matter what happens, because you'll have created something that you're really proud of, and that you believe in wholeheartedly. And that energy is going to be what attracts people, I think.

Suzanne Chadwick 58:15
Yes, that was my thought, man. Yes, I totally believe that to like, I just think, once again, I know I just said it recently, the energy that you bring is the energy that people receive. And I just think being in love with what you do, being in love with what you create, even when it's hard, you know, when it fails, even when it doesn't work. You know, I just think that love, just people are drawn, it's magnetic. When you love what you do when you are invested in what you do for what you do and for your clients and for the work you want to create. And the the energy you want to put out into the world. I just think that is what is magnetic.

Dr Marion Piper 59:01
Yeah, yeah, it is. It's like a like a bug zapper to the people that are killed in a good way. And you know, part of that too, is like yes, share your process. But I am sort of a more in the camp of like, don't share too much. Because you also want to you want to build a bit of excitement, build a bit of anticipation. And I think sharing milestones is a really good way to get around that and and letting people know what you're working towards and saying buy this, or like, this is what I'm working on this week and then maybe come back at the end of week and be like, Well, I did it. Here's the thing, you know, so it allows you to get those also those like nice little hits of dopamine along the way. Because let's be honest, that's why we're all on social media that feels good in the brain sometimes. But what I love about so much about this stage, is that it really leads and migrates all the way into funnels into if you will, stage six which is is liberation. And I purposefully renamed this stage because this is how I want you to feel when you get to the point where you're ready to release your creation into the wild. Now, people often hold back their creations at this point, because they think it's not ready. It's not done. But like, I personally nine times out of 10, the thing that will complete your work is sharing it. So it's getting, it's getting it getting the creation out of your head and into the hearts, minds and well and lives of the people that are going to serve it the most. And so people often wonder why they're so exhausted. But chances are, they have all these tiny little projects like tabs open in your brain. And so if you don't share it, if you don't close that loop, oftentimes, that's what will lead to the burnout, because you still think your subconscious brain is still thinking about it, if you haven't told it that it's done. And so you really have to have a moment where you do share and release and let go and allow the idea to not be yours anymore. Allow it to be a part of the world. And so, you might notice, that, while we might be looking for a moment when, like, when is the right time for me to release this thing? Me Again, I tap right into my body. And I think like it's when my heart starts to wander, and I go, actually just don't want to work on this anymore. That's usually an indication for me that it's time for this idea to become a piece of collaboration out in the world. Awesome. Yeah. And I think it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because I think this is where the perfectionism can sometimes creep in to have is already, like, yeah, am I am I done? Like, I don't know, I don't know if I'm done. But I think that if you're, I think that if you are in a in a state of flow, then and you are kind of sharing your journey along the way, then there can be a point of conclusion. But even with a slightly open door, it's like, here's what I've created. This is what I've done. And it's kind of going back to what I was saying a lot earlier around the evolution of once you've completed something and you've created it, but just knowing that, like, you'll continue down the line, but not stopping because you're not sure 100% that you've finished. Yeah, and this is where we tend to see, like the scarcity mindset creeping a little bit. So you know, people you might have this fear that you know, you might not have anything to do once it's done, or that you never get it never gonna get an idea that's as good as this, you know? Which seems just really funny to me, because I'm like, Yeah, of course you will. Because you're a human, and you're a creative human. Have other emotions that pop up rejection, like, what if they don't like it? What if nobody buys, you know, and then my favorite, and probably my Achilles heel is fear of success? Like, what if it blows up, then I'll be seen? And like, can I handle the realities of getting what I want, you know, these are all valid, and whatever you're feeling at this point, when you release, it might be that nervous excitement, but it could also feel awful. So, you know, just, I think, just make space for whatever comes up for you when you release it. And all of that, you know, and don't be afraid to share that too, because I think people will really respond to how you're feeling in this process as well. Yeah, and I think this is where courage comes in. Yeah, I think and it can feel really rubbish. Like, it's not fun. It's not easy. But it's just like, let's go, though, because if I don't, then what's it all been for? Like, if I don't release it, if I don't let it go, if I don't kind of see if it's got legs out there in the world, then I just think that that the, you know, I guess the repercussions of that can be quite like silting for your own creativity if you create and then you don't let it go. Yeah, and Father Bronx who I mentioned at the start, he has a really interesting way of looking at this. And so he sort of talks about every finished and released creation is a vote towards your self empowerment, and your self as he says your self esteem is always watching. So if you don't follow through, it is such a knock for your confidence, for your belief in your own abilities. And the other thing to think about too, is like this is what I think about just before I'm about to release something, everything is waiting for me everything that I've been hoping for praying for dreaming of is on the other side of getting this thing out, and I find that that's a really motivating way to think because it then it's less about me, you know, and it's more about the idea at this point. So yeah, but it is tricky. It is true. and it is about courage. And it is about standing up during that Big Gulp, and just and just diving in. Yeah, and I love like something that comes to me when you talk about that, as well as like in Big Magic, Elizabeth Gilbert talks about just creating and putting it out into the world. And she talks about killing your darlings, not like holding on to it like, it is a life or death. It's not she's like, you know, when she when people say, you know, when they write a book or whatever, it's my baby, she's like, it's not your baby, it's something you created, like get it out into the world. And let go of it. Once you've created it, and you let it go, it no longer is yours, like it belongs to the, to the people or to the idea that you've created it for. And I think for me, like years ago, when I first listened to that, that was such a aha moment that gave me permission to not, like, put so much emphasis and importance. And like, these are all my eggs in one basket, like creativity is something that is endless. And the more that I create, the better I become at it. And also just letting it go allows me to see what it does in the world, which then is the feedback and the evaluation of how did that go? Like? Is that what I wanted? Did that did that work the way that I wanted? Was there? Like what, how else can I evolve that where else could that go? And I think the letting go is where so many people struggle, like the letting go and putting it out there. I feel like that is one of the biggest things that my clients face is holding on to it. And I'm just like, if you've got it, just launch it, let it go. Put it out there and then and see. Yeah, yeah, no, you're right. Yeah, becoming a finisher of creative projects is something that will 100% Change your life, and will allow you to not just, you know, experience the rush of what that feels like. But then also, it'll just make you more creative. Because you'll once once you demystify the process, you're like, oh, cool, I'll just do that, again, with something else. Like this assignment, anything in life, like once you do something, once it becomes less scary, you know, and it gets, it does get easier over time, like the ideas don't get easier, your emotions in the process probably won't get easier, you'll probably become more invested. But the process itself, that release will just become as easy as the first stage of inspiration, you'll, you'll start to get the same hit that you've got at the start, when you let something go. And that's really like one of the things that I try to remind myself is that, you know, I'm just the custodian of this idea. You know, I'm just, I'm just a stop in the way of it trying to get to the people that it needs to get to. Yeah, I love that. That's so good. We just need to let go more, let go more. Okay. But one thing I did want to mention, just before we wrap up, is what happens after that. Because I think, you know, there's we don't really talk about what happens the day after or the day after the day after when you release something into the wild. And I want to invite people to start to anticipate or come down. So I want you to plan for it too. So it's when you send you know, a piece of yourself out into the world or you send this idea that you've been shepherding out into the world, it might feel like loss, it might also you might feel really heavy, you know. So rather than rushing ahead and diving straight into the next project, which is a distraction strategy, I would invite you to sit in that liminal space. So sit in that really uncomfortable place of between the old idea and the new idea that is well on its way. And this is the space of really nurturing yourself nurturing your creative life, resting, recovering, doing mindless activities, if that's something that, you know, feels good and in good timing for you. But you know, you might and you might not need that much time. I'm not talking like a year between projects here. But really, it's like listening to those deep cues of how much space you need to recuperate, but just know that that's probably gonna come so that it doesn't completely derail your life. Because I see that happen too, especially when people release bigger projects that they've been working on for years, is there's this huge crash afterwards, because you're no longer feeling that it's no longer a part of your identity. And so there has to be a bit of space in between to recalibrate and if you don't anticipate the come down, it usually will manifest as a spiral and then you'll start questioning, you know, Although that negative self talk will run rife, so it's really about knowing like and you know, it might be as simple as if you are launching something, you know, maybe the that next couple of days after that launch. You just take yourself and do something really nice and really nourishing. And you know, just love on yourself and celebrate yourself and just no matter what happens, just be really, really proud that you actually did it.

Suzanne Chadwick 1:10:25
Yeah, I love that. I always schedule like massages, or a day off or a week off or whatever, especially after a launch. Or just after something. Yeah, well, you've been working on it for a long time. I've just like, Okay, time to just like fall in a heap and be okay with that for a little bit. Yeah, and you know, it's, it's okay, it's okay, if that next hit of inspiration doesn't come for, you know, a week, a month, a year, like, other life will give you so many opportunities to create that maybe it's not your creation that you're meant to work on next, maybe the next thing you need to do is support somebody else with what you've just been through.

Dr Marion Piper 1:11:07
That it's so dynamic. And there's so many ways that we can be a participant, an active participant in our creative lives, where we were, we're not the one constantly driving it forward.

Suzanne Chadwick 1:11:18
Yeah. Let other people be in the driver's seat sometimes. Yes. So good. Marian, thank you so much. I love that. And I totally resonate with all of it. I'm like, I remember when I was in that. And when I was in that, and when I was in that, I think that yeah, and I do think one of the things that you said is, you know, the more that you do it, the easier it becomes, I think the easier it gets to let go, the easier you understand yourself in the process as well of what you need in order for those revelations to come. And I just think that, you know, enjoying, like enjoying the process to like, I love the creative process. It just doesn't always love me back sometimes. But you know, I do, I do love it, I do get addicted to the aha moments, I get addicted to the release of putting it out into the world and all the nerves and everything else that comes with it. But I just think that as business owners, and as you know, no matter whether you're an artist, or a business owner or working for somebody else, I just think really leaning into all of the elements. Like it's, it's such an amazing gift. Their creative journey is a journey of self discovery, you know, first and foremost, and it is a gift. It's one of it's one of the the biggest gifts of being human, you know, and that's why people it's why we take it for granted, because it's so oftentimes so invisible. But when you call attention to it, and you and you be really intentional about how you experience it, like it just it changes the game and it makes it like you said it makes it a much more enjoyable process. And it's you know, it's not something to be feared. This is what we are built for.

Dr Marion Piper 1:13:07
It's good.

Suzanne Chadwick 1:13:09
Thank you. So Marian. For my listeners, where's the best place to find you? We've got Marion's got a whole lot of book recommendations, which are amazing that will all be in the show notes that you can go check out. We've also got all of your links, but for those who are walking the dog and all the rest of it, where's the best place to connect? Yeah, I tend to look on Instagram. So you can find me at Marian Piper creative. And then my website, which is just Marian Piper creative.com. Amazing. Thank you. Lovely.

Dr Marion Piper 1:13:37
Thanks for having me. Now go create.

Suzanne Chadwick 1:13:44
Did you love it, I loved it. I love going into processes and going deep. Now I do have to say Marian has given the most comprehensive Show Notes ever. So make sure that you head over to CS chadwick.com forward slash pod pod to one eight. And you can check out all the show notes there. You could probably print it off and go through it yourself. So really, really valuable and massive, massive kudos to Marion for going that deep on this podcast with us. I absolutely love it. Make sure that you check out all of her links and go say hi as well, because she's such an incredible creativity coach. And I just think that if you're somebody who's looking to really explore your creative process, then make sure you go and work with Marian because she's fabulous. That's it for another week. Amazing to have you here. Just remember you can always connect with me on Instagram at Suzanne Chadwick. If you've got any questions, I am here for it. Happy to answer them for you. Feel free to share this episode if you got a lot of value out of it and I cannot wait to see you next week back here on the podcast.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai