Suzanne Chadwick  00:00

Yeal, welcome to the brandbuilders Lab podcast.

Yael Keon  00:03

Thank you so much for having me say

Suzanne Chadwick  00:04

my pleasure. My pleasure. Now we met a while ago, I did a master class for it was it for you? For

Yael Keon  00:13

my email experience membership? So I believe you talked about Yeah, branding yourself through your emails that come

Suzanne Chadwick  00:20

through. Yeah, that feels like such a long time ago now.

Yael Keon  00:23

Good few months anyway, maybe it could be even a year.

Suzanne Chadwick  00:29

People like, I feel like we've just been at a time where it's like, I know, there was a few, like, months ago there. No, that was two years ago. Oh, what am I doing? Exactly. But Oh, good. But listen, I was excited to you recently bought the podcast brand plan. And you were like, I did it I launched. So you bought what the bold speakers collective. And you went through the podcast brand plan. And we were sort of chatting. And I just thought, you know, something, I have been talking to my audience a lot about really refocusing on organic marketing, and being very deliberate about how I am doing that this year in 2021. And how I'm going to do that more in 2022. Because I just feel like socials is such a unpredictable based. And I just think we've got to continue to focus on the things that we own and that matter. And as an email expert, I just really wanted to get you on the podcast and talk about some more advanced strategies, because my listeners are usually three, five years plus in business, what are some of the things that we need to be doing? So that's what we're going to talk about today. But before we dive in, give me a little bit of background on you. So how did you kind of end up in this niche?

Yael Keon  01:53

How do we end up in any missions. So I've been in marketing my whole career since, you know, I studied that after school at uni, and I was in corporate for for 12 years, I think before starting my own business with kids. So the classic story. So I did start generic marketing strategy, wanting to be you know, the marketing strategist expert. But as you know, as you teach, that is a really hard niche to kind of break into, because there's, again, it's so generic. So you know, you got to do what you meant to do. And that is niche down. And I just found, everyone kept asking me about email. And because I was able to talk about it really clearly, I've been using it. And I'm really someone who's really good with systems and seeing how things fit together. So the more and more lead into it, the more and more momentum I got, so I just kind of stuck with it. And yeah, I actually really love email marketing, when I first started my business, I actually really didn't, because it is very, very different sending emails, when you've got like a corporation's name in the sandbox versus all sudden, it's you. But back in the day, I think there was like six years ago, you know, I said, you have to have your list. And so and I found it was the number one lever and driver of my business. And it was just easy and easy for me. And it's just been the backbone of everything I've done. And you know, the more I dig into it, the more node nerdy I get with it with automations, and all the cool little things that come with it. So it's just a constant playground.

Suzanne Chadwick  03:23

Amazing. I have to say I don't I don't think that the majority of business owners feel that excited and like it's a playground. But I think this is the thing. It's about learning how we use it in a way so that we get the results that we want so that it feels easier. And it is the joyful place to be.

Yael Keon  03:42

Yeah, I definitely yeah, people look at it and think like, there's just a certain way of doing it. Like, Oh, someone told me, I have to build my list, and I have to have a sales funnel. And then I have to do this whole pushy thing. And then I have to email every single week. And I'm like, Yeah, that's one way to do it. There's so many different things you can do with it. And there's so many different layers you can add. That does make your life so much easier. And also bonus helps you really serve your subscribers really well. And so if your customers two people forget that it's about also the post purchase experience as well. And a whole range of things.

Suzanne Chadwick  04:17

So yeah, awesome. Good. Yeah, it's

Yael Keon  04:20

flexible, too. So flexible, that you can just you can do it in your way. You don't have to do follow some big formula thing.

Suzanne Chadwick  04:29

Yeah. Awesome. I think that's a really good lane as well. Just like what do you feel has changed in the email marketing space? Has anything changed? Is it is it evolving? Or is it just pretty consistent in the same? Like, what are you seeing at the moment?

Yael Keon  04:44

So I'd say like, the foundation is still the same. So you still need to grow your email list. You still need to be showing up and sharing with your subscribers. Absolutely. Definitely. It used to be all about newsletters and maybe get one a month with this roundup stories. Then again probably five years ago, it was more about, you know, just letter styles and just like having a single focus, per email and around that. But now I think it's definitely evolving more in to showing up for your subscribers around where they are now. And I mean that by using kind of a bit more automations a bit more learning about who your subscribers are, and then how to help them. So that sounds really complicated and sounds really scary, but actually isn't too difficult because a lot of the software actually handles a lot of this for you, but having, you know, different automations based around the stage that they are at with you like, are they brand new? Or have they been in your audience for a long time? Or what are they interested in? Maybe you have a couple of different categories of topic you talk about which one are they interested in in and maybe talk to them a bit more about level? Or what stage are they at in terms of their beginner, intermediate advanced, you can start to just have a few basic categories and talk to them in different ways. So that's a big thing. And using automations to power a lot of that. So there's actually less reliance on you actually having to write an email every single week. And secondly, that though, giving your subscribers those choices, so instead of everyone just getting everything people can say, You know what, this is what I want to get, or I don't want to receive this. And that's all okay, too. So people it's a lot more customized and a lot more personalized. And the ad is really connecting and talking to people on a deeper level.

Suzanne Chadwick  06:33

Hmm, awesome. I love that. And so let's drill down into that I remember, I feel like it's a few years ago, time is just irrelevant at the moment. But whenever it was, I remember Pat Flynn's sending out an email, and it was asking what level of business you were and then you clicked on whichever, like, you know, have you just started in the last 12 months? Have you been in business for two years? Or five years or something like that? And, and then you would click on it. And it was interesting. Like, I don't know that I felt like I got different emails or not. But when you are segmenting, is that a good way to do it? Like how for my listeners, if they're wanting to find out more about their audience and segment in that way? Number one, how would you do that?

Yael Keon  07:22

So there's a few ways there's really obvious ways and sneaky ways to. So yes, so that is one way that pet would have done. And that is just like when they click that link or add a tag in the backend, you can segment people according to when they click that link. He couldn't he might have used that to send different emails out to different people, or it could have been purely for market research as well. And also, frankly, it can be an engagement tactic too, because those clicks through rates, they send great deliverability signals to Gmail and Outlook, etc, to help emails get to the inbox. So there's a few things to do with that. So you can do it that way. You can also do it on signer. So when someone signs up actually have a third field, I think there's omnisend did a study and actually found three fields is actually the magic number for getting people to complete. And I wouldn't waste that on the last name or something I would say, you know, ask something, you know, I've had you know, which stage are you at and I've had it or what type of business you are like your ecommerce or your services, I do sell digital products like for my own example. So I know that if I have something specifically commerce, I can do that. But there's just a little drop down when people sign up. And you can add that in and then segment them out that way. But you can also do sneaky ways to like if you have a blog post or podcast episodes about email marketing, you can when they click the link to listen, take them email marketing, and do some things that you might not need to do anything with that data. But down the line. You can also check like oh, what topics? Are people clicking on? What are they interested in and discuss? You've just got this good information as well. So lots of different ways you can get

Suzanne Chadwick  08:57

there. Interesting. And I think I think I have tagged overwhelmed. Yeah. So we did a clean up, I use ActiveCampaign. And we did a clean up I want to say a couple of months ago, where any tags that didn't have any body against them, we did a bit clean out and things like that, because it was just like a never ending list. And obviously, like I've had Active Campaign for at least four or five years, if not longer. And so when it comes to like sending out an email and say, you know, I've got my podcast episode or something like that, then how realistic or how efficient or how worth it is it to have tags on different things like that. I'm just really I'm very much like that feels like tag overwhelmed to

Yael Keon  09:52

be absolutely so easy for your tags to become a hot mess. It's so many of them and it's it's ridiculous. So there's Yeah, there's two loads to that one I don't necessarily recommend you have to do on every single email. But sometimes it's a few strategic ones that you're definitely keen on. Or even if you did it strategically, as who clicks links to view your sales page or your products as well, it's very clever. But in terms of the

Suzanne Chadwick  10:18

just, can I just just can I just step on that one for one sec? Because I'm always worried that people are just sticky baking, they're not actually interested. They just have going for a bit of a look. Yeah, I guess it doesn't matter either way. But I'm just like, I'm always really conscious. I always, like, let me say,

Yael Keon  10:34

Yeah, I don't necessarily do I'm not at the stage where I'm, you know, I've got 1000s and 1000s of people clicking my links, so I generally do a personal review of the name. So I can generally tell like, if it's fellow marketers, or people who are already my programs and things I'm like, okay, yeah, I know, you are just having a look. But then there's other ones. Now, I don't know you or Oh, yeah, you could be potential and then I'm, you know, I might personally outreach depending on what I'm doing that time. But yeah, in terms of tags, so I definitely recommend having a naming convention. Yeah. So just simply as, like, I like to tag anyone who signs up for certain opt ins. So I would have one opt in colon, and then whatever it is, so they're all grouped together, if any webinars are grouped together, or an interest ones will be interest call on topic, and obviously wouldn't have every single one in under the sun, you just have your real core, yeah, all ones or stage colon, whatever. So that that's just a way to just make them a bit more manageable and have everything kind of grouped together. And then, as you say, doing a clean up probably every year or something just to move people around, reorganize, because it is easy just for things to layer in or things to phase out. Because that was relevant for a time. And now. Because that was during the launch. And you're not, it's not relevant anymore. So yeah,

Suzanne Chadwick  11:50

yeah, absolutely. And we've had like products that we don't no longer have. And so it was just sort of getting cleaning all of that up as well. So just a follow on to that as well, like we were talking about with Pat or you know, interests or stage or things like that. So are you sending emails to each of those different groups like different emails? Like how would you be using that sort of segmentation?

Yael Keon  12:14

Okay. So, again, this comes down to we don't want to overwhelm, we don't want to have a million different combinations of things. So that's why you really want to be strategic about which ones you go for. So I'll use my example, just because it's easy. So that example where I shared where I've got ecommerce services, digital products, at the moment, I really only use that apart apart from, you know, just checking my data or back end data curiosity to see the breakdown of my audience. I really use that in two key ways. The first way is during that welcome series. So during the welcome series, I have my main emails, but I'll at least have one that's specific to each group. Of course, you can go, you know, eat your heart out and go different variations of it, depending on on the series. But I just feel especially during that first, those first interactions with your, your subscribers, that you can talk to them in different ways. You know, meeting them when they're out. And I think that really makes a big difference to them. Second way is in the emails themselves, it's only sporadically, it's not going to be like every single week. But if I have something that's relevant just to a specific group of people, I will send that out at that given time. So I might just send an extra email out just for ecommerce or just for services, if it's relevant just to that group of people. Also, digital products, for example, sometimes, like I've got a program where I help people with their launching, and we think through email, I'm not going to send that to people who aren't doing digital product stuff, I just send it just to those people. So that's more where it's at. So it's not every single thing under the sun. It's just a few key strategic times. And obviously, the more you know, you can play with it more and more and go as deep as you want with it. But I do believe in keeping things simple as well.

Suzanne Chadwick  14:13

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, we use it as an as an elimination, you know, segment as well, where we'll send out emails, but not to current clients, and all of those sorts of things. So you know, we're not going to send a BBA promotion to BBA students, those sorts of things. So I think it just helps. Yeah, I definitely think it helps to serve up relevant information to the right people. I definitely think we could probably be going a lot deeper as well. But yeah,

Yael Keon  14:40

and another way to do it similar to the clients want is just what emails they want type of content they want to receive from you. So for example, with the podcast, I will send an email now out every single week for that, but I also send additional emails when I have other things to talk about. So I have a Once everyone joins my list, once they get past the welcome experience, they will end up on both the podcast and my updates list. But they can choose to say, No, I don't want the podcast stuff. But I want to get the other updates, or I only want the podcast stuff and I don't want the updates. Or if I'm in the sales, I can say you don't want to get the sales email. So going on launch, you don't wanna get these launch emails opt out here, but they'll still get the other stuff. Yeah,

Suzanne Chadwick  15:23

I think that's such an important one. Because I think they absolutely you can, you know, you can give people an option out of that particular product. And so we've got one like in at the end of the BBA or BBA sales demos, like, if you're not interested in this promotion, or in this product, just click here. And then we've got like a, you know, opt out, BBA opt out or whatever. And we just make sure that we have that on but I think it just keeps your list happy. And also, like, you don't serving up stuff that they've said, I've just done in that. Which is Yeah, I think it's

Yael Keon  16:02

a choice. And it's so fun, actually had someone yesterday, reply to my podcast email, she's like, can you disagree? Subscribe me, because I just wanted to click the link to see what it did. So I knew how to do it, and never can you put me back on. But they love having a say in what they are going to receive and not receive. And I think, especially if you're sending more than just like an email, you know, a month or whatever you want to be able to give them that chops.

Suzanne Chadwick  16:29

Yeah, absolutely. And so how do you set your email? shedule? So you were just saying that you've got like your send out podcast, one, maybe every week, I do the same? And then other emails as well. Do you plan? Like, are you planning when you're launching when there are specific times of the year? Like, are you planning ahead? Or is it a bit more kind of, you know, like this week, next week, the week after just? Yeah, like how, because I think that's something that people struggle with, as well as sort of like, the thing I hear the most is, what am I emailing them. So I've said the podcast is such a great thing, because it's fresh content, it's relevant to my audience. So I know that it's a value. And so I'm really happy to send that out. And so I think that if you're not creating fresh content, you then have to come up, I guess, with the content being the emails, so your content is in the email, rather than it sharing other content that you've created, like a blog, or a podcast or a video or something. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah,

Yael Keon  17:37

absolutely agree. If you can have some sort of core content, it makes email so much easier to at least be showing up on a weekly basis. So having something like that is just amazing. And the amount of people I talk to you already do like a blog or something, and they don't even email their list about I'm just like, it's the easiest email ever. And yet, again, you can give people the choice if they don't want to receive it, but at least it means you're showing up consistently with valuable content. It's not even got a sales pitch in there necessarily. So I like to have that consistent. But in terms of my planning ahead, yes, I plan when launches will be. And sometimes I plan out my other email content, but it's sometimes it's just comes a spur of the moment. But how I manage it is I have theme days. So again, we're talking really complicated strategies here, but complicated, but I try to simplify it down and make it as easy as possible. So I know Monday is my podcast date. So that's the day I send my podcast email out. Tuesday, typically is when it's more like my membership updates, or like client updates and stuff. So Monday, typically is podcast days. So that's the day I'll send that out. Then Tuesday is probably is typically when I send out like content to my members. So anyone is already a customer, then Wednesdays, I haven't talked about your revenue strategy yet. But I've got that's my content fun all day, which we'll get to in a minute. So that's an automation. Then Thursdays is my bonus, my updates day. So that's the day I tell myself if I've got something extra, I want to say and that's the day I send it on. So that way. Now that doesn't mean someone's going to get something from me every single day of the week. Yeah, but depends, you know, it's more like a just in case, they happen to end up on all of those groups of people. It's spaced out. So I don't need to feel like I'm sending a million different things. So yeah, I might send out something extra on a Thursday or Friday if I want to do a like oh, like you can now book in my calendar, I'll do that kind of on those days. Or if I just feel like I have something I want to have a you know, a bit of a bent about that's when I'll do those. So that's how I kind of make it easier for myself without having to be like I have to plan like

Suzanne Chadwick  19:53

all these different life that same days. So what's the Wednesday?

Yael Keon  19:57

Yeah, so I've got this thing which I've dubbed Content funnel. So basically, that is a series of automated emails after someone finishes the welcome series. So when someone does the welcome, then I put them into another funnel, which is like an email a week, on the Wednesdays for, for a berries, I'm updating at the moment that sometimes have like 12 weeks, there are certain it's just like the core foundational content that people want to know about it, but not to anyone who's purchased. So this is kind of like that nurture bit in between. And it's just basically best off tour, before they even start getting my like that. And that's what they'll get. I won't send those people just my random thoughts once, if that makes sense. So it's just a way to make sure that anyone outside world just yeah, just make sure that anyone who's new in my world is getting what I believe is the most important stuff for them to know they're getting help in the best way possible. And they're getting like for me, I get a lot of people who are new to email marketing. So it's sort of talking about that and giving them that introductory stuff and making them feel like oh, yeah, I actually can send stuff and making them feel good about it. And hopefully, by the end of that they're willing to invest in in the program, but if not, you know, at least if got that foundational level of knowledge and made some progress and enjoy, no, it's not showing up for them. So if I have taken a couple of weeks off, sending emails because of wife, I know my new people have been looked after

Suzanne Chadwick  21:28

amazing and say, let's take a step back. So right now or generally like, what's your what's the length of your welcome sequence? And what sort of things are you sharing in there? I feel like we had a welcome sequence a while ago. And I think that when we did a whole big update and clear out and everything. I'm not sure that we've still got one, I need to go check that.

Yael Keon  21:54

Yeah, that depends. Some people also call them sales funnels, so it depends on the focus, because I'm sure you've probably got some sort of sales funnel, yes, ration set up. So for me my welcome sequence, the goal is to get people initially into the email experience, or at least on the waitlist for it, which is my membership. But that doesn't mean I'm not showing up with value during that time. So it goes over about two weeks, I believe, again, I need to probably refresh it. It's mechanic in his car. And I'd have about six or seven emails during that time. And again, like I'll have, it typically follows from my freebie, which is 80 plus fill in the blank email idea. So people have come to me thinking, I don't know what to send my list. So I'm talking so I have a couple of emails that just go deeper on that, you know, really encouraging them. Yes, you do. Don't doubt that you do. I have one, they're specific for the different category, because they would have chosen which type of business they had. I think I explained like automations like, as well. So I have a couple of key pieces. I'm just sort of get a good understanding of what email is about. But it's all with the goal of you know, if you want help with this, I can do it. Yeah,

Suzanne Chadwick  23:06

I mean, that's great.

Yael Keon  23:08

So it's yeah, that's,

Suzanne Chadwick  23:10

that's what's that little freebie. We'll make sure we've got the

Yael Keon  23:14

ad plus fill in the blank email ideas. And yeah, yeah, okay. own.com forward slash ideas. Easy.

Suzanne Chadwick  23:22

Amazing. Yeah, we'll definitely we'll have that in the show notes. I'm just like, that sounds good to me, too. Okay. All right. So you've got the welcome sequence six emails over about two weeks, but it's connected to the freebie. Do you just have one freebie? Or do you have multiple freebies? This is a question I get all the time as well, how many freebies Should I have? And I've got three opt ins that lead to three different products. So they're very specific to solving a problem. So I know that if somebody opts in for that one, then this is the sequence for them.

Yael Keon  23:55

Yeah, again, this is a place where it is so easy to get overwhelmed. When I first started, I don't even know how I did it. I had like, cuz I think Amy Porterfield spoke about it having like, and she still does that I think I had content bump for like, every single post. And I did that. And I was like, this is just way too much. Oh my gosh, and now we're just going through the same sequence in that instance. And I might not, I believe you are much better, like you've done really having a couple of highly targeted freebies and making the best sequence you can and try to connect that to as many things as possible. So yes, I've got this ideas one. I have another one which I don't promote, which is more about making the like a worksheet for picking the best email marketing software. So that's kind of just something that's naturally come out of the podcast, which doesn't I believe I have a custom sequence I probably should. And then if I have like a mass I have a masterclass which people can sign up for any time as well so that it that does connect through a bit Usually, depending on people purchase or not, so it's sort of, they don't really connect, they're all going to the same place. But if I was going to create something that had, if I was like, You know what, I'm going to start focusing more on my launching program, then yes, I would definitely put in something special in place for that. That's yeah. So yeah, I generally think if you can connect them to the same welcome sequence, it is good to separate out obviously, the Delivery Email, and then just get them to the same welcome. And I'm normally make that the welcome. So they can only go through at once. But obviously, the delivery ones they can get as many times as I need to, because they can sign up a few times, because I think they got

Suzanne Chadwick  25:39

1. Yeah. Awesome. So I think that, you know, as we're sort of talking about really up leveling your email game for 2022, as well, I think always going back and taking a look at, you know, what options do I have? What is my sequence, because I think sometimes we set and forget these things, and I'm guilty of it sometimes as well. Like I said, we just did an update not that long ago. But even as I sit here now I'm like, did we have a welcome sequence for that. So even just going back and checking in on what you've got, I think is so important, and making sure that what you've got is really aligned with what you're wanting to focus on, and where you're wanting your audience to actually go. Because I think it's really easy just to have stuff and be like, Well, it's an opt in, people can sign up, you know, it'll help me grow my list. But if it's actually not targeted, and positioning you the way that you want to be positioned, and it's not leaving them where you want them to go. It's just a bit of a waste, really. So I think that that audit, you know, if you do something for my listeners, if you do something, you know, in December or January around you're planning and you know, reviewing what's working and what's not, I think that's a really important one. I know that we look at that, too. And not only is the opt in really good one, but also, what's my open rates like on that and the stats around it? So I'd love to talk a little bit around stats too. So what sort of stats do you look at for yourself and your clients when it comes to like what working?

Yael Keon  27:10

Yep, so definitely there is different. There are different stats you want to look at, depending on the purpose of female, because obviously a sales email, I don't care how many people do care. But it's not as important to me about how many people are opening and clicking as how many people are actually buying. Because yes, open rates will be lower on sales emails than they will be on your normal, everyday emails. But you know, you're getting sales out of them. So that's the important thing in that instance. But if you're having emails, which are more focused around engagement and getting opens, which is a key thing to be doing in between sales periods, then opens and clicks is really important to be tracking. So I always when I'm looking at my general emails, I'm always looking at you know, what's the purpose of that email? What's the intent behind it? What am I asking my subscriber to do? And I always want you to be asking them to do something. And then, you know, assess. So obviously launches, your main focus is is how many sales You're welcome series. If you're making a sales pitch edit out of it, obviously, you want to know how many people are buying as a result of that going through that first experience with you knowing that still many will want to take their time and make a decision later on. But, but then also looking at opens especially that first one you want to know people even opening and clicking it to get that download. And just and really just comparing to yourself. So seeing Okay, in that welcome series. Is there one particular email which just isn't performing as highly as others? So when I swap that one out, or change the subject line or or look at it that way? Or when it comes to campaigns? Is there anything missing out there? In there? So that's kind of what I look at, overall. So back to the intent of the email. Pretty much

Suzanne Chadwick  29:03

was so good. And so speaking of, you know, email headlines and all the rest of it, are there tools or what tools do you use to make your emails better? I'm all about the tools. I love the tools. Yeah, close. I don't actually

Yael Keon  29:21

use a lot of Yes, different software or fancy I know there's headline generators and all sorts of things. I just Yeah, I just use my imagination and I just tried to go How can I make this or or just interesting. So yeah, in terms of headlines and opening, like I just love to get inspiration from different places and I will just ask myself, well, what will make me want to click this will make me curious. Sometimes I like to just be direct. I just mix it up and just see what my audience likes. Really.

Suzanne Chadwick  29:55

Yeah, that's so good. I love that. I think for me, I do struggle with headlines and things like that. Like, I'm just like, oh, this is so boring. So I have and somebody that one of my copywriters that I worked with, there's the code shedule.com email subject line tester that I've recently just started using. And I'm always proud of myself when I get over 70%. Which is, which is bad little, you know, like, this is a good headline. And so yeah, so I definitely try because it, I feel like that doesn't come naturally to me. So I try and use some of those tools. And then the other one that I've recently and this is more copywriting thing, but something that I've started using recently is the Hemingway editor, these are all free as well, where I just I write really long sentences. So that kind of, you know, stops me in my tracks and highlights, you know, maybe break the, these 100 words into different sentences, and put some full stops and commas in there. So just little things like that as well, just to make it easy and readable. So for me, those are a couple of things that have helped. I'll put the links in the show notes as well.

Yael Keon  31:07

Yeah. Yeah, I guess when, when, when I'm, I'm thinking about it. I'm definitely like, and some of your listeners might might feel this way to say, oh, that sounds like writing an email is just like a lot of work. And so I'm just like sending an email that's not 100% versus not sending an email at all is better. So definitely don't put your pressure on yourself that you have to you know, go through this for editing for test. Like I know, I think it was Marie Forleo talked about you know, writing on 20 different subject lines for sending emails and I have a slide for you but coming up with this one this one's good. You know, I'm I get I can easily see how people get overwhelmed and think okay, well I need to dedicate like three hours to writing this email and I'm just like, No, just spend your 10 minutes and write it out. Make sure you check your spelling and check that it's spaced and easy to scan like you would like a website but don't get caught up in has to be like copywriter level extravagance, because it's just going out to just your people.

Suzanne Chadwick  32:13

Yeah, it's not I'm like the queen of typos. And I always find the typo. I'll read it five times. And then I'll find the typo when I hit send. So I find just using something like that for me. How so? Grammarly,

Yael Keon  32:28

Grammarly. So yeah, just to find what those really random ones and I Yeah, yeah, they come up a lot. And you know, it's just sometimes I just embrace it as part of my personality email, because I'm just like, I'm direct. I'm the systems person. I'm not the copywriter. So I don't feel like I have to be, oh my goodness, I misspelled something.

Suzanne Chadwick  32:46

And something else that I do love to do is there are a few people that I've subscribed to where I really like their emails. So I do have a little folder of if I get an email where I think it's really good, then I'll save it just for inspire, where I'm like, Oh, that was cool what they did there, or that's a little bit different. Or I really like just the way that they structured something just to kind of keep it fresh as well. So that like if there's other ideas around that I'm always I'm always up for kind of looking at those two.

Yael Keon  33:18

Yeah, there's definitely heaps of just like fun things you can lay around you can definitely embrace you know, your brand personality and your email. Some people feel like it has to be professional like that. Like that. Because it's like dear sir Ricard, because that's what it had to be when you were like first learned at school and your emails and how you did letters. But this is just having like, it's actually conversational medium. I think he's just literally having a chat with the audience. Yes, you probably are providing some really helpful information or some sort of motivation or something. But it doesn't have to be this being formal based. Feel free to have fun with it and lean into your brand and your personality, add a little bit of color, add some some words, some jokes, add a GIF, whatever it is. So

Suzanne Chadwick  34:01

I was just about to ask this. Yeah, because I've, I've kind of heard two different things. So I'm a big one for images. I love my images. I love an email that comes through and it's got an image in it, those sorts of things. I also from a branding perspective, and a big one for having your face somewhere on it. Because we get so many emails and stuff. It just builds that personal brand and that brand awareness, but then I've had other people say that if you've got images, then it's more likely to be picked up by spam, or it may not get through or things like that. Any thoughts on that?

Yael Keon  34:37

Yes, that used to be the case that lots of images and lots of links would have a big impact on reaching spam or not. It is less so the case now. Still, as a general rule of thumb, I would not want to go over 30% of your email content being image just be

Suzanne Chadwick  34:59

like a header Yeah, it's like I heard it, Amy, maybe one other in there. Yeah, like I've got my podcast image in most and we did for a while just take it out and put the link in. And I felt I felt sad Yale, I felt sad when I looked at. I was like, oh, there's like no color image.

Yael Keon  35:17

I like to make the buttons colored and my links, color colored and stuff to add some personality. But no, absolutely, there's nothing wrong with adding an image or two in your emails, if you especially if you feel like it enhances the value of the email, the key thing I just want you to note is that you just don't want to rely on it. Because so I see this like where people want out, like where they worried about, they can't get their emails pretty enough. So they go and design it in Canva, and then put an ad, the whole email is an image, because they just want it to look good. Okay. And the problem with that is, of course, that the whole thing is just that you need. So that sends red flags. But the second layer is, is people don't even have images turned on. Because sometimes, you know, you get that line at the top and like we are not displaying images, click to show them, a lot of people weren't quick to show them. So you can't be relying on the images to get your key message across. But you can use them to enhance hmm.

Suzanne Chadwick  36:14

And so just a little question on that, because I know that I've seen a lot of the people that I subscribed to just have the text now. So they've just got the text, and then they've got maybe links and stuff like that. And I've seen it as a trend, definitely in the last year or two, where people who used to have a lot of image or not a lot, had one or two images, no longer have them. So do you think that it matters? Do you feel like people feel like it's more of a personal message when there's not an image in it.

Yael Keon  36:43

And it's definitely just comes down to their truck, often it's probably trying to play with the deliverability. And getting into inbox versus promotions. Because the more and more it looks like an email that's like you'd send your mom or your friend, the higher of chance it will hit the inbox versus promotions, or updates. I think it's in Outlook, but they're still getting the email regardless. And if you think about it as well, if you are like, you know, the inbox, you know, Gmail, etc, they're trying to prioritize which goes were based around their activities. So, yes, they want the ones when they're mums and their friends to go their main inbox and then be you know, they are still categorizing and placing them correctly, if you are running a promotion, or if you are, you know, doing an update, they are putting in the correct place. So they're often just trying to work around that. And some people just like that style, too. So

Suzanne Chadwick  37:42

yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. Um, and the other thing I wanted to ask was around PS. So do you like a good P S?

Yael Keon  37:53

Yes. Strategy.

Suzanne Chadwick  37:55

Yes, strategy. I love a good PS strategy as well. What is the PS strategy? Yeah, oh, for my Ps are they talking about

Yael Keon  38:04

is where you use the PS section of your, of your email to either summarize what was in the email, some people just go to scroll to the end, or you use it as a secondary call to action, are just an additional option. So for example, in that welcome sequence, like you're not going to go unless you unless someone's literally signed up, I'm going to get discount code, and then you send them the discount code he's linked to by you're not going to go straight in like, you've opted in, here's my amazing program, like you want to build up a little bit more trust, but there will be some people that are like, Oh, I just, I'm just like, in. So you have your email. And then UPS is like PS, if you want more help, here's where you go. PS, if you want to book a one on one call with me, here's the link. So it gives them that option if someone's in that place, but it's not, that's not the focus of the emails, it's not making them feel like just soul to it also plants the seed. So even if someone's not ready to click that right there, now they're aware that something exists, that a next step exists. So it's just got that in their subconscious as things are going on. So you can have a line of text or you can have a feature product, you can have a testimonial in that space, you can have all sorts of little things, but adds that little extra something. So love appears.

Suzanne Chadwick  39:23

Yeah, I changed mine up every now and again as well, like so sometimes my PS, I did have the same one for a little while where it was kind of like, you know, PS here, like if you want to get my book, here's the link, if you want to listen to the podcast, here's the link. And if you want to work with me, here's the link and it was very simple, clean. And it was kind of like that. Now I for me, I think about it as if you read nothing else in this email. This is what I want you to read. Because if the rest of the email is kind of a bit more information, helpful stuff. I'm just like, you can read through all that and it's good but like if you've got to seconds and you read nothing else. This is the Ps that I want you to be aware of. So yeah, I'm a big I'm a big one for the PS, I think it's I think it's really important real estate. Because I know I go to the PS when I see other people's emails, like my eye goes there.

Yael Keon  40:19

And sometimes I have a p s and a p p s. Yes. And I've also seen on that first one as well, too long, didn't read, like at the top, like a one sentence thing a TLDR at the top. If you got a really long email, just like a two sentence overview of the email,

Suzanne Chadwick  40:33

as well, at the top of the email at the top. Yeah, interesting. Okay, I love that too. That's really good. That has it. And so what is there anything else that you think that my listeners should be focused on? I think that what we've gone through has been awesome. I'm actually like, I've got some new fresh ideas myself. But is there anything else that you think you know, if you don't focus on anything else for your email marketing in 2022? Like, this is the one thing or two things you need to focus on?

Yael Keon  41:06

Yeah, I think honestly, is a just comes down to showing up for your audience and what they want from you. So do have a sit and think again, about why did my audience sign up to my list? What do they want to know about? And how can I help them with that, and don't be like, like you said, with Pat Flynn, don't be scared to actually literally even ask them what they want to know about. And don't be scared to show up and provide that value. So some people worry about sending too many emails, because they don't want to be annoying, but I guarantee you people are getting a lot less emails, and they're seeing in their Instagram feed, you know, talking about things that provide value and add value, like whether it's, you're sharing some stories, you're sending some insider knowledge about different trends, you set sharing some behind the scenes, or having a bit of a rant, whatever it is, that feels good to you. Don't be scared to think about who who are they and what do they need for me now and actually showing up and sharing that because people sometimes just you just really feel like, ah, you know, a bit tentative to send those emails because they worry about that annoying factor. But I think it's more important to be showing up more often with more value, and then sprinkling in the sales in between. and ultimate comes down back to that and connecting that way.

Suzanne Chadwick  42:27

Yeah, and it doesn't have to be war and peace. I think that's the other thing. I think people feel like, well, I need to really sit and write something that's highly valuable. And which might be a bit more, you know, like more information in it. And just like, if you've got something really cool to share that's in like two paragraphs, or three paragraphs or something like that something really simple, then I think that's really cool to send as well, because I think it mixes it up. I think it's a little bit different. It's different to other people's stuff. You know, you're kind of keeping them on their toes as well. So, yeah, I think just, you know, think about what's the value right now, what could I share? And also, like you said, how can you do something that's going to engage them, get them to click Get them to respond?

Yael Keon  43:12

Yeah, it's definitely, you've got to think about like people, there's definitely this tendency, you want to try to overcompensate by over delivering, like, you see this in programs. You see this, I see this with opt in incentives, like people feeling like they need to create a 30 page ebook, something because I need to make it worth it. But what makes something worth it is one, someone has time to actually look at it. Because I just want to scan something quickly and get him get my imprint. And to what they get out of it. Like what is that outcome? Or what is it that they learn? Or do what sort of quick when you don't need to change the world in one email. But if you give them one quick thing, they'll remember that. So I think that that is crucial. Absolutely.

Suzanne Chadwick  43:52

Yeah. And just the last thing is, in past years, I'll probably do it again next year. I've sent out like a three question survey, as well. So it's literally like there are three questions. I'd love to know your thoughts and I usually get a pretty good response to that. And once again, it's just around that direction. Like what would you like to hear more of? What What's something that you're really focusing on this year? And maybe what stage of business you have? Yeah, I don't know like three things. Yeah, I

Yael Keon  44:21

love doing that on anyway. So I love also throwing in an email every couple of months which is purely just asking them a question and asking them to reply. That is amazing. For deliverability by the way, like if people reply to your emails Gmail is all this person sending stuff that people want to read they're engaging with it that's like gold dust. So constantly just you know asking questions and make them really specific to don't be super generic like what do you think be really specific about and have some you can even have some that are click the answer or which one of which is which and or and it's not even put the answer they just they reply, I prefer this or that. It just a you're learning constantly. You're beginning to know what they want to learn more about what they want help with where they're at. But the it creates that engagement and that back and forth and takes it more from a two way relationship versus shouting into the void. And you wondering if anyone's actually doing anything?

Suzanne Chadwick  45:25

Yeah, yeah. Love it. So good. Yeah, I really enjoyed this conversation. I think that there, I think that email is something we need to care more about and spend a bit more time in and making it better as well. I know but I, I do like sending out my my weekly emails to my subscribers. But I'm also like, how can I make it more fun? How can I make it more interesting? How can I make it a bit different so that it stands out as well? So I think that we've given everybody a lot of great ideas. So tell me a little bit more. So first of all, congrats on the new podcast, what is it called? So that my listeners can go and check it out?

Yael Keon  46:03

Yeah, it's easy email marketing, with the URL here and so I'm on all the podcasts things I made sure I was because I listened on an obscure when I when I can't find the podcasts on my main one, I get really, really annoyed. You can find me there. Absolutely. And I'm up to about almost 30 episodes now. And I'm sure they're only about 1015 minute long, because I'm just in there about giving quick, you know, tips and quick insights on different things. So you can easily binge to through a lot of different topics.

Suzanne Chadwick  46:36

Fantastic. And where else can they find you? What's your web? We'll have all the links in the show notes. But what's your website and which social Do you like to hang?

Yael Keon  46:45

So I'm everything's yo Keown, nice and easy. So yolky en.com YAELKN and I'm at Yale Keown on Instagram as well. That's probably the best socials been the email girl. That's been listed on the socials more times in the email. Yeah, that's, that's me. But you can definitely connect with me on there.

Suzanne Chadwick  47:07

Fantastic. And then what programs have you got? Because I feel like this is something that people want to get better at.

Yael Keon  47:13

Yep. So I have my membership and the email experience, you can find it's yucky. on.com, forward slash experience, where you where I teach all of the email marketing things, so at all different levels. So lots of stuff about content, lots of stuff about tech with tutorials. I'm very conscious not to lock people into a system. There's nothing more that I hate. So you can join this program, but you have to be using ConvertKit or you have to be using this one. Obviously, I can't teach them all. I use Active Campaign.

Suzanne Chadwick  47:45

Oh, I feel like I just got a gold star. Yeah.

Yael Keon  47:50

I just love it. Because it's the most it's got the most to play with.

Suzanne Chadwick  47:53

Yeah, well, I did try a few. I did move around. I think I tried about four different ones. And I did try Active Campaign. I went away and then I came back. I was like, Yeah, this is the best.

Yael Keon  48:04

Yeah, it's, it's the best in terms of what you can what it can do. But it can be incredibly overwhelming for some people. So the best software is the one that you're actually gonna use. Yeah. And if you just look there, and you just go, this is too much. Yeah. Yeah, you can go with definitely a lot of other choices. So yeah, that's, that's my main offerings. I do do a little bit of like VIP day stuff. And I have an email launch program called Email launch project, which we back again in January, where I just live coach people through email based launch for their programs. And yeah, so

Suzanne Chadwick  48:44

Yeah, amazing. I love it. So good. And like I said, like, it's such a massive focus for me right now, like getting, we're blogging, like, obviously, the podcast is like our core content. And I'm wanting to do more with our emails, and just it's all just like organic, organic, organic is where I'm at. And while social is great for connection and building community, I want to get people back to my email. So if you're listening to this podcast, and you haven't subscribed, then make sure you hit disease jedrick.com And do that. But yeah, I have loved this conversation. I feel like I'm excited to do more with my email marketing. So thank you so much for sharing. Really appreciate it.

Yael Keon  49:24

Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed nerding out with you about email. Hopefully, I didn't lose people at the beginning part where I'm talking about some of the more advanced strategies, but I think they can handle it.

Suzanne Chadwick  49:35

Yeah. 100% We love to nerd out here on the Brand Builders Lab every single week. So go ahead. But yeah, we will check out all of your bits and pieces and I'm sure that my listeners will come over and say hi as well. But thanks so much. Really appreciate it.