Suzanne Chadwick
Hey, Hey gorgeous. Welcome back to the podcast. We are at episode 81. And today I have got author of brand hustle, a book I have been raving on about for some time Troy McKenna on the podcast as my guest today, which I'm super excited about. So for any brand geeks out there, get ready because it's a good one.

Welcome to the brand builders lab podcast, we're learning how to create an epic brand. Find the right marketing strategies, and building your business is a constant evolution classroom and lab. Each week we'll be diving into all things brand and marketing with special guests and solar episodes to help you build your business brand and big idea.

Hey, hey, welcome back. awesome to have you here. I'm super excited for this week's episode. Oh, well, really, as I am with all of my episodes, but for any of you that follow me on stories, or just on the podcast or anywhere else. I have been talking about a particular book for a little while now that I randomly kind of stumbled across in the airport bookshop, which is called Brand hustle. And so I thought and this is a lesson to you, because I talk about it all the time. I just emailed the author, Troy McKenna, and I said, Hey, love your book. Do you want to be on the podcast? And he said, Yes. So once again, ask for what you want. And you never know you might just get it. So I'm excited to be interviewing him today. On the podcast talking all things brand hustle. It's like two of my favorite words. Anyway, if this is your first time here, Hey there, I'm your host, Suzanne Chadwick. And this podcast is brought to you by vac connection exchange. And I work with savvy business owners to help you build a confidently bold brand, articulate a powerful message and attract clients who want your brand and flavor of awesome sauce so that you can play bigger and brand bolder. Sounds good? I think it does. So there you go. Now the other thing that I did want to let you know and I'm going to be talking about more is that if you enjoy the podcast and you want to connect more, plus you want to access free Q and A's with me about anything I talk on the podcast, then make sure you head over to the brandbuilders Lab, Facebook group where I do live Facebook q&a s you can ask me anything that you want. How good is that? Because I want to continue the conversation. I get so many DMS and messages, which I love and thank you for that. But yeah, I am more than happy to answer your questions. So head over to Facebook brand builders lab group, and come say hi. But without further ado, let's dive into this week's episode.

Troy Mackinac, welcome to the brand builders lab podcast.

Troy McKinna
Thanks for having me.

Suzanne Chadwick
My pleasure. So my audience already know because I've been sharing on Insta Stories, your book, which is brand hustle, which I stumbled across at the airport, and it just the color stood out for me and I was like, Oh, what's that? And then I have read it and I've got lots of little doggy ears throughout it and what some highlighted sections and I already knew when I finished it that I wanted to read it again because I'm like, I feel like I didn't absorb everything. And I think that there's so much goodness in it. So first of all, congratulations on the book.

Troy McKinna
Yes, thank you. That's a great review. Appreciate that.

Suzanne Chadwick
Happy to go and write a review for you as well. I really loved it my quite a few of my audience like where did you get it? And what is it and so as so yeah, so I think that for any brand geeks out there, I thought it was awesome. So what made you write it in the first place

Troy McKinna
Brand geek is probably a good good term to sort of call myself yeah, I've always loved brands and I can remember when I was a little kid getting into surfing and I remember getting a board and sending it back again my postures out and basically drawing every single surf brand logo on the bottom of it and sort of just loved it and then I studied marketing and got into it but I really didn't uncover the true value of branding until I was at Mars and um, I got the opportunity to pick up the pods brand, little wafer cups of chocolate and caramel and I picked it up when it was about six months old and they'd been all this hype, but it was tanking and it was in the biscuit aisle it was in a box and it was priced wrong. And there was all these things that are wrong with it. And so I had about six months to turn it around and really got my hands dirty on every part of the brand where we sold it in store, what type of stores we sold in how we branded it, how we packaged it priced at advertised that and you know over that process, we managed to turn the brand around from declining to a doubled in the first 12 months and then tripled a couple of years later. And so from a business point of view and an impact, it was amazing experience from a financial point of view for the business. It was amazing, you know, for the bottom line, and then just aligning people around that. So that was sort of great experience out of building brands. And then when I was at Schweppes, Schweppes has a lot of amazing brands, but the business is, it's a lot more financially driven and more obsessed about putting volume through the factories. So it was making a lot of the decisions that were detrimental to the brands, which was really frustrating. And I guess why right brand hustle was, you know, I think a lot of companies are losing the art of brand building and don't really understand it, and and therefore, you can see it in the p&l for a good business that knows how to build a brand versus one that's just selling on price and moving a lot of volume financially makes a big difference. The growth is a lot different for that from a top line point of view. So lots of benefits to it. But that's really what I was aiming to do. And then I guess the other part is that marketing is sort of get taught. And the way it was 1020 years ago was you had a lot of time and companies were patient. And you could sit around and write a three year marketing plan. And you could take 12 months to make a new campaign. And, you know, there's lots of patients, no one has that patience anymore. You know, most marketing roles turnover within 1218 months, two years. And so you don't have a lot of time to make an impact. And everyone's getting short term and set obsessed. And whether that's the CFO looking at, you know, delivering this quarter's financial returns or the sales team around, what are we going to sell this week, this month. And so marketing's got left out of that conversation. So the, I guess the hustle parts of that is how do you how do you build a brand, but do it well and strategic, but do it in a way that delivers results? In short term, which is what everyone really needs? Whether you're a startup or a big business, everyone's chasing cash flow, or they're chasing profit growth. Yeah, I think the one thing that I did love about the pods example, is for those of you who don't know, it's like the it's like a little triangle biscuit thing with some caramel. Is it chocolate? Is it chocolate or chocolate? Yeah, both in the middle.

Suzanne Chadwick
But what I loved about it is that you really did an analysis of who was eating it, and it was kind of like, the women that were eating it, it was almost like portion control. Yeah, and for the blokes, it was like that they could download a whole bag, like a snack, snack sort of thing. And I just loved that it was really going into that depth of who's using it? How are they using it? Why are they consuming it? What like, what messages are gonna really resonate for them? How do we sell it to different markets. And I think that that segmentation and really understanding the problem, I'm kind of doing that in inverted commas. The problem that it solves was really interesting, the way that you went about actually doing that research.

Troy McKinna
Yeah, and I think that's the, I guess that's the heart of my message, which is, you might own the trademark in a legal sense for the brand. And you might think you're writing the strategy and all, you know how you're going to execute it all. But really, the value of the brand sits in the consumers heads and in their behavior. And unless you understand that fully, and understand how to work with that, and tap into those motivations they've already got and behaviors already got, you're not going to get to build a brand. And so I think, you know, I did at uni, I did a marketing degree and an arts degree at the same time. And in my arts degree, I did a lot of psychology, and I reckon I tap into my psychology degree more than I do my marketing degree, because marketing is about understanding people, their behaviors, their motivations, and, you know, not to manipulate it, but how do you sort of tap into it and understand it? So you can, you know, build your brand and, and sort of build your business?

Suzanne Chadwick
Yeah, absolutely. And my audience now I write, I rave on about this all the time. It's really about that emotional connection that you have with with your customers and them understanding that you do solve a problem and that you do have them at the center of like, why you're doing what you do. And so I would love to know on a personal level, what's like a brand that you love, and like why do you love it?

Troy McKinna
That's a really tricky question for someone who's into brands. Yeah, like that. I was even just on the weekends. A marathon runner broke two hours for the marathon and which is amazing feat. But Nike is sort of at the heart of it and now it's all coming out around all the technology that he's worked with them over a long time. And so, you know, you can't go past a big brand like that. I mean, I think you know, another brand in that space is Patagonia where the, you know, the they've really built a business with purpose and the products are amazing. And, you know, the the whole rationale behind the founder of build a business that does good for the environment as well. And so you know, the shift to organic cotton and, you know, is everything they do making products with longevity rather than fast fashion. So, you know, I love that a great Australian brand that sort of close to home is Four Pillars Gin, I don't know if you've got many Jean tea drinkers out there and listeners. But yeah, Four Pillars Gin have built over the last five or so years, a really amazing craft gin brand. But what I love is, everything I do is about the product. And, you know, the way they're crafted, the recipes that they come up with, you know, they're just launching now that for example, their Christmas Jean where they, they basically say Christmas puddings in with, with their gin together, you're really unique flavor. And, you know, they come up with an Australian artist to come up with a new label for that. And they, you know, they promote it, you know, the photography of that, and the, you know, the recipes that go with that. So they have this real system around creating great products, but everything that encompasses that. And so that's how they built their brand, which, you know, I sort of look and look towards and love. So, yeah, lots of examples, but they're sort of come the couple have come to mind.

Suzanne Chadwick
Oh, awesome. And I think that kind of goes into the next question that I wanted to ask is what you're sort of seeing in the market. And I do think that a lot of people are now buying based on the values of an organization and like how they're showing up and how they're being socially conscious or, like why they do what they do when those brands stories. And it's really not, we're not just looking for a product or a service anymore, we're looking for a business that shows up and has a reason for why they do what they do. And so what are you sort of seeing in the market as far as how consumers have changed their buying behavior?

Troy McKinna
Yeah, I think that's a good question. I think there's lots of change. But at the same time, there's, there's some things that remain true. I think that at the heart of it is people lead really busy lives, and they only have so much time to get into, you know, what they're purchasing and how they go about that. And so they really pick and choose what categories or products are really meaningful to them. And, and really go in depth on that. But I think there's, you know, if you look at that end of the spectrum, there's a lot more research that happens now around, you know, if you're into chocolate, you really get into, you know, who the craft chocolate makers are out there, what are they doing, and you try them, you go and meet them at farmer's markets, or wherever they're sampling, and see really get into it, and then you understand the story of where they've sourced their cocoa beans from and how they're produced it. And then some people, you know, aren't that into it. And they, yeah, they get Cadbury at half price at their supermarket on the weekend. And so that the difference between those two shopping experiences and process they've gone through, it's quite different. And so if we really got into every single product and where it comes from, how its produced, who's behind it, you know, we've just run out of time. So I think you're seeing both ends of the spectrum still relevant. But I'd say that what you see now is there's this immediacy to some, some categories, and particularly, when categories where there's lots of innovation, and that the metaphor I talk about is I see someone on Instagram with a click through to their page. I want to buy it right now. I want to find out more about it. I want to buy it right now. And if you're not in that world and servicing that customer you're going to miss the sale. And so it's Yeah, yeah, as I said, there's a lot of lot more research going on a lot more trance transparency, expected and a lot more immediacy and speed to those those processes.

Suzanne Chadwick
Yeah, and I think as a consumer my expectations have changed because at the moment Instagram is where I probably spend the majority of my time if there is a product or service that's online, my expectation is that I should be able to click on the image and go straight to the product and buy it so I get a little bit of noise Yes, I'm frustrated if I kind of can't do that now just because obviously I know that the tech is there to be able to so I think yeah, understanding your buyers behavior what they want and being able to deliver something quickly and easily without the friction is really important otherwise you have probably lost a big opportunity.

Troy McKinna
Yeah, definitely. And you can see that in every category there's you know, there's big players that have to service all the market and you know, they bought everywhere and then there's little nice guys and lots of probably a lot of your listeners that are starting up their own business and they can start out small and I guess what all this tech and social media and so on has changed is anyone can start any idea in the bedroom and and get it out to an audience and you can start with one sale. You don't need to convince a big retail there's a time taken on board you can find one customer and start the ball rolling. And I think that's really amazing that I think equally makes it you know, brand building even more important because it's so competitive in every industry, there's 1000s of products now that can that are popping up just because someone's got a great product or you know, something that they've created at home and want to share it.

Suzanne Chadwick
Yeah, awesome. So I do want to dive into the book a little bit. And there was something that kind of really stood out to me. I mean, there was so much in the book like there, for anybody that is going to go out and get it. It's like just a bible of branding, really, like there's so many practical, actionable tactical things that you've got in it, that we can't go through it all today. But one of the things that really stood out for me is that you talk about, or you say, it's faster to grow a brand by bringing in new buyers than it is to work against human nature and get existing customers to be loyal. Now, obviously, there's that old saying that it's easier to keep a climb and get a new one. But you're saying that that's not the case anymore?

Troy McKinna
Yeah, no, I guess there's, there's, there's facets to both of that, I guess what I'm getting at in the book is there's, you know, your sales are made up with the number of people that buy you and how much they buy in a, in a purchase in a year or whatever that may be. And, and it is a bit at odds, because everyone has been built. You know, as long as that. You know, over the years, that brand building is about building loyalty. I think when you get into the marketing science, I've been sort of fortunate that I've worked in big companies, I've seen lots of data on all of these brands we've worked on. And the marketing science will show you that the biggest brands have the most buyers, and some cases, lots of those buyers are really infrequent. So there's a long tail to it. And so they've built their scale by getting more people to buy their brand. And I guess my point is, definitely keep servicing your current customers as well as you can. But loyalty is, is a difficult one. You know, I guess, people aren't so much loyal as in. I don't want to call them lazy, but they want it easy. And so really big brands and really strong brands make it easy for people to buy. And, you know, it's easy to think about them, it's easy to find when you're shopping, it's easy. When you get there, the product works, that service works, it's a good way for money, all that sort of stuff. So they've made it really easy. Loyalty is when you dig into the data, there's some definitely some people that are loyal, they'll only ever buy a certain brand. But they're very, very small portion of the market. And so if you want to build scale, and you want to build your business, you need to keep bringing people in. And that's the point around you got to bring new buyers in it's it's going to be faster growth for you to bring new buyers in to get someone to buy, you know, 10,000 chocolate bars out of you in a year, for example, it's better to find 10,000 people that will buy one chocolate bar and a faster way to grow. Yeah, and so it's a you know, there's a controversial sort of marketing scientist called Byron sharp, who works with the Ehrenberg bass, which is a sort of marketing Science Institute in South Australia. And but it's it's sort of challenged a lot of those sort of urban myths within marketing. You know, I'll give you a really good example. When I first learned it was about bit over 10 years ago, and I was working on sneakers. And so sneakers historically had this target market of 16 to 24 year old young guys, and we're photogenic for decades that strategy was let's try and get those 1624 year old guys to be really loyal to Snickers. Now, what we found out when we really dug into the data was everyone that eats chocolate bars eat Snickers, and you can get as much loyalty or lack of loyalty out of a six year old woman as you can out of a 16 year old guy. And so people have this repertoire. And some days, they feel like something with peanuts in it. Some days, I want something crunchy. So you know, they're going to something like a crunch bar or whatever. Sometimes they want something really indulgent, so like a Mars bar, even getting into some of the block chocolates. And so people have this repertoire. And loyalty is is you know, there's only so much loyalty you can get out of people. And it's just human nature, because they just want some something different or it's out of stock at the shop, they go to whatever it may be. So yeah, it's a difficult one. But, you know, again, a good example is, you know, Four Pillars Gin, do a lot to really build loyalty and sort of connection is probably a better word with their brand. And so they started out and they did a crowdfunding campaign. I think it was about 1000 people sign up for the first one. Those first 1000 People still get special emails and say you've got early access to new products and so on. But what they've also Danny's over time, they're constantly building their email list. And so that email list is up in the last time I talked to him, as you know, 30 1000s. And so they keep building the brand by bringing more people into that inner sanctum and give them a really great experience and build a connection with them. And so if they stuck with that first 1000 people, their brand would have stagnated. If, by moving to that, how do I build it and build a connection? They've been able to build their brand?

Suzanne Chadwick
Yeah, so it's a bit of a two pronged approach, then. So it's obviously continuing to build brand awareness, bring new customers in, but then it's really still giving the love to the customers that are maybe a little bit more diehard as well, or that really want to support your business. And I think just the other question on that, do you think that there's more brand loyalty for higher priced products, rather than maybe things that are a little bit more commoditized?

Troy McKinna
Yeah, you definitely seem, I mean, any category where there's bit more connection. And so again, working on chocolate, people who love chocolate, it's a really getting into it, and I really connect with brands, if you're working on toilet paper, or, you know, bags of rice, or flour, or whatever, that's hard to build a connection. And so there's, you see, like, even if you'd look in the data, a category like chocolate, Coles and Woolworths are really struggled to do private label chocolate, if you got a flower, it's dominated by private label, because it's just not their connection. And it's hard to build a connection with that. So yeah, it's, yeah, you definitely see differences. I think, to your point around loyalty and sort of more premium categories, I think you can definitely, you can see that as well. But again, sort of looking at it data. And again, I use alcohol as an example. Four Pillars Gin competes with Gordon's and all other gin brands. But it also competes with beer, wine and spirits. If I'm out having a drink, I might have a gin and tonic, but I might also this type of beer, or I might have a red wine. And that can change. I've been in one sitting in a restaurant, you can start with a gin and tonic, and you can finishing on dessert wines or whatever it may be. So it's loyalty, again, back to the topic a lot. It's difficult because people just have their own behavior that they, they do. And it looks, it looks really random. When you look at one person in isolation. When you look at a whole marketplace, it's really scientific and follows a really uniform structure.

Suzanne Chadwick
And it's super interesting. And I know that you did go into, I guess some of the science and the things that you had learned along the way in the book as well, which I found really interesting to go through. One of the other things that I really wanted to talk about was you talked about two factors that impact brand value, which is the mental availability and the physical availability. And so I just wanted to I guess, translate that a little bit like, How can my listeners be a little bit more aware of this when it comes to their customers? And what do they need to kind of understand or be thinking about?

Troy McKinna
Yeah, again, back to this topic of people are busy and lead busy lives, and they've got a lot going on. They they looking for easy solutions. And what I mean by easy is not cheap, and you know, whatever, what I mean is it comes to mind really easy, and it's easy to buy. Now, if I give you an example of you know, like a scenario of its, you know, it's a summer's day, it's, it's, you know, 35 degrees, you've just had a call for your mate, they're all your mates hitting the beach to watch the sunset and have a beer, can you go past the bottle shop and get the slap of the PAP or a six pack of beer or whatever? Chances are, you know, go through that scenario. If I said what are the top few brands that come to mind? Coronas most likely one of those top brands that comes to mind, because what they've done is built this association with that moment. And you know, the best brands are building that association. So mental availability is does it come to mind when I'm thirsty and my mates call in the beers are calling the sunsets calling? Does Corona come to mind has it really sort of anchored itself on that? You know, having worked on soft drinks, and we looked after I was working on the Pepsi brand, obviously compete against Coke, which in Australia is far more dominant than Pepsi, Coke have built mental availability in lots of ways. And so there's lots of needs they tap into. So one might be you know, I'm gonna get a bit of fast food, but burger and chips. You know what, what sort of brands come to mind and chances are Coke is one of the first brands that comes in mind because it's it's just built this association you gotta macros and there's no big mac and fries and a coke.

Suzanne Chadwick
Can I just tell you whenever you say Coke, and I swear it was in the 90s that this they had this jingle the sun will always shine the birds always seeing as long as there is coke. There's always the real thing. And it was like summer and the pool and big floaties and I'm like, I swear I would have been in my teens Yeah, when that and that songs still sticks. See my head. So it's that association with summer. And coke. I know you're saying like MCAS or food, but for me it's like, and I don't even drink soft drinks but but that sticks with you guys are up drinking Coke when you probably Yeah.

Troy McKinna
So I think that's yeah, again back to the you talked about the science. There's about there's hundreds of reasons why people drop by sufferings but there's there's about a dozen really important ones and so with fast foods one summer refreshments one, which is what you've just tapped into, I mix it with drinks. So if I go to the bar and order a bourbon chances are not ordering a bourbon and Pepsi, I'm ordering a bourbon coke. Yes. And so they've built that the Christmas is another big one. So if you're entertaining the family, you know, they started selling the Santa Claus and advertising long, long time ago. So they built all these mental associations, which basically just means it's really easy to think about coke in a buying moment.

Suzanne Chadwick
And it's really interesting, like, I we don't have soft drink in our home generally. But it's like a treat for my kids when we go out. And I've got a son who's seven, and he now orders Coke Zero. And I'm just like, where has that come from, which obviously, is his little tray. But I even find it really interesting what kids tap into, and like how they like, that's his thing that he loves. But I have no idea where that's come from?

Troy McKinna
Yeah, I mean, there'll be a social scene, something said an ad somewhere he's seen, you know, one of his older sort of idols drinking it somewhere, mates at school, whatever. But that's, I mean, that's how brands building. And I think one of the challenges they've Coco got and the soft drink industry has got is that it's not getting as many of those new generation coming through as they would have been out, you know, going back over the years. Yeah. And so I think that mental availabilities that is the sort of the first part and then the physical availability, which we're tapping into, as well is, is about how do you make it easy. And so, you know, again, I've sort of continued example of coke, if, if I'm feeling fat, like fast food, and I walk into McDonald's, it's there, it's easy. And so it's easy to buy. If, if I walked into KFC, which is theirs serves Pepsi, it's not available. And so the chances are, I'm not going to walk into KFC and order my fast food, and then go hold the drink, I'm going to go walk cross the road to find it somewhere else. And so they've just Pepsi have made it easy to buy in KFC. And so the point is around, how do you make it easy to buy in our buying moment, and because people back to the point of, again, not a call consumers lazy, but they just want an easy, and so they're not going to shop around if the first brands not there, which is why they have a repertoire they can tap into. So you know, in any category, you will find that brands, people will have two or three or four brands that they're really happy to buy, you know, it's the same, same stats, having worked on chocolate and soft drinks, it's the same in you only think about fashion shoes, cars, whatever it may be, you know, think about cars as a, as an example, really high end purchase, you know, really expensive, you're not doing it that often. The standard person, the average person has three to five brands that they think about in that buying moment. And then they go through and end up selecting whatever they do. So you know, from the availability that comes into it, and price comes into it as well. I can walk in a store on my hot day thinking about Corona. But if I see a saw here at the front of the store, and it's right there on a big display, and it's it's cheap, it's gold, that'll do that was one of my other brands. So I guess that's the battle. And you know, in the beat, we've been talking a lot about the physical part. So physical availability of stores, and but it's also true of a technical environment, like a digital environment, but go to Google, and I'm searching for new shoes, for example. Chances are I'm not going to get past the second or the third page of Google search. And so availability is that, you know, the search results as well. So, you know, it sort of plays out in a in a digital environment as well.

Suzanne Chadwick
Yeah, absolutely. And I sort of do say to my audience, too, is that really taking a look at the journey that your customers or audience can potentially go on from, say, finding you on Instagram or on social through to your website? How easy is it for them to understand what you do, who you work with what your products and services are? Like, is that really hard for them to find? Because I've experienced that where it's been really difficult for me to understand something about somebody and I've just clicked away, because I'm just like, I don't have the time or the energy to figure this out.

Troy McKinna
Yeah, definitely. And that comes down to the detail as well. It gives some, you know, you're gonna have some sites and they just have all this technical detail and you just get lost in it. And you know, people again, are just wanting something really quick and hidden between the eyes. With a really simple message that resonates with them, and is language that's motivating to them and meaningful to them.

Suzanne Chadwick
Yeah, awesome, which kind of leads us to the four foundations for building a brand, which I really loved. And I would love you to take us through that. So what have you sort of found? And what are these four things?

Troy McKinna
Yeah, so the four foundations, they sort of work in a in a sequence, they work in a, they interconnect in that they, you need to have a picture of all the foundations as one. And, yeah, so I'll start, I'll go through them all. But starting with the first one, which is, which is about problems. And so customers pay you to solve a problem for them. And so you need to understand what that problem is. And so what any person has is, everyone has needs, motivations, somewhere they're trying to get to, but there's, there's something that stops them from getting there, there's a tension point. And that's your job to help them fulfill the need without the problem. And so, you know, I'll talk through an example of a brand I'm working on at the moment, Carmen, stormy, so much sparkling and still mineral water in aluminium cans. And so the need is, I'm thirsty, I need refreshment I need something convenient when I'm out. But the problem is, people are sort of really sick of buying plastic and single use plastic. And so there's two ways you can solve that you can pick when to stop buying, and they'll that won't buy, or in our case, we've solved it with an aluminium can because it's the most recyclable format contains the most recycled content as a starting point. And so the problem we're solving is, you can buy your drink when you're thirsty when you're out and feel less guilt because you you're doing a better environmental solution to that. But every category has got the same thing, whether it's, you know, whether it's, you know, as we talked about soft drinks, and I want something that's gonna help me wash down my burger and fries. But it needs to be convenient. In this case, now, it needs to have no sugar, because that's an issue. So that's where the zero sort of pops up. It needs to be healthier, which is where things like iced teas and other formats of work. So yeah, it's about solving that problem for people.

Suzanne Chadwick
So So just with the problem, how, like, what sort of, is it just speaking to your customers? Is it listening to them? Like, what are some of the ways that you kind of feel like you go a little bit deeper around what their problem is? When it comes to that?

Troy McKinna
Yeah, definitely. There's lots of ways you've carefully you need to get as close as you can to the consumer, your customers, and in the moment, they're using it. So we do lots of work, we will go into people's homes and, you know, sticky beak through their fridges, you know, we've been doing stuff in the in the building industry at the moment, and we'll go on to building sites, and we're just talking through exactly what's happening through the process. So getting as close as you can. So, you know, my first advice would be, don't be shy, or go out and sort of talk to customers. And, you know, you can find those problems in any, any anywhere. You know, even just online these days, if you if you're in a selling a product, you can get onto reviews of your major competitors. And you can go through and say, what are all the particular bad reviews and go what's going on. And you know, this product doesn't work because you know, the battery goes flat too quick, or you know, it's too big, or it's too heavy, or a lock it in a different color or, and you can see those reviews. And so they're the sort of problems you're looking for. Because that's, that's a customer waiting to, you know, waiting for you to come up with this new product. And so that's it guess it's a key one. I mean, I've got a great story, when we were developing the real Iced Tea Company, which is an iced tea brand. The starting point of the finding that problem was we started talking to janitors, like cleaners in food courts. And the observation they had was with Lipton iced tea, that often fight throwing out half drunk bottles, which led us down this path of people liked the idea of iced tea, because it's healthier. But what they were finding with Lipton was the taste was really bitter, and wasn't that great. And so, you know, which was a really odd observation, and probably the most random place that you've ever started. But that's, that's the sort of space you need to get into and really start to dig into that. You know, there's a really great book I refer to in mind, which is small data by Martin Lindstrom. So you know that He gives great examples of getting into people's homes getting into their workspaces or wherever your product is used, and really uncovering those tension points. Because that's, yeah, as I said, People pay you to solve that tension for them and the better the bigger the problem and the better you can solve it, the more they're going to pay

Suzanne Chadwick
Oh, yeah, I love it. That's great. So the first thing is really understanding the problem and the tension point that your customers are obviously wanting to solve that problem.

Troy McKinna
Yes, definitely, definitely. And then And so once you know that, that then sets you up for the second Foundation, which is about building solutions. And so people buy solutions that they're not buying all your technical features, and so on. And so what, you know, in the book, I talk about features and benefits, but almost a benefit ladder of so what are the what are the key features of your product? And you ask yourself the question of so what? Yeah, I've got all I've got all these ticks, I can put on the front of pack. It's like, so what? What's the benefits gonna deliver to me? And the first benefits really irrational one, which is, what does it functionally do for me? And then you can ask yourself, once you deliver that functional benefit, so what what does it do for me in a, in an emotional benefit space, you know, always love the stickers example, here of It's packed full of peanuts, it really satisfies your hunger. And so that's if hunger is the functional benefit delivers. And then the emotional benefit is that it really satisfies that, like, it's, it's sort of taking it to the next level. And so, you know, that's, it's, it's about getting it as simple as possible, that people understand. And I think that's having worked on Snickers, it's an amazing brand that's done that job of, you know, you're not you when you're hungry, it's sort of, you know, I've got a five year old and he gets the hangry. He's, quite often I don't feed him any Snickers bars, because that things tend to make things even even worse. But people can relate to that. Right. So I'm a bit angry and a bit irritable. And so yeah, they've done a really nice, great, great job of solving that. Yeah, it's so well known as well. Yeah, definitely. That line. Yeah, yeah. And so I think the the features are, guess what really sets your product apart. And the shorter this list, the better. You see, lots of brands, I think, fall into the trap of we can do, you know, we've got these 1020 different features, and you can actually over stack your brand. And the challenge of that is, again, back to people need it easy. If you're saying yeah, here's, here's 20 Reasons to buy me, people go guys over, what you need to find is what's the most relevant to the biggest audience possible? And sort of really honing in on that?

Suzanne Chadwick
And sorry, just on that, I find it really interesting as well, I feel like it's only when you test some of the messages that you can see what lands as well, because I sort of think that I talk about like, a range of things. But there's been one or two things where the response has been so much bigger, or that's been like more of a hook than the other thing that I thought that was a hook. So just around the, you know, talking about the solution. How have you tested messages in the past? Like, what sort of how do you know what message is really going to land or going to be that hook that you really want it to be?

Troy McKinna
Yeah, I think, again, it comes back to sort of getting in front of your customers as much as possible. So a great example, when we were developing the Carmen Carmen stormI, as a brand, we had, we've prototyped it basically. So we had 15, different designs, different names, different messages, different hierarchies. And we basically got went to local printers and got $3 stickers, and we went and bought cans on the market and stuck the stickers to a whole lot of them. So we had 15 cans we put in front of consumers, and also features that are retailers like cafes and, and sort of other food outlets. And we'd get them to this go, here's 15 different things. What do you like, what do you grab, and we'd start to talk through that. And, you know, in the end, we've we've sourced their water from a dormant volcano. And so it filters through this dormant volcano for 30 years. And because I've been really nice mineral content, now people go dormant volcano, does that really matter to me. But what resonated was tilgate I know where it comes from, and it's got a it's got, like it's anchored in something that's really sort of, I understand that I understand the benefit to that. And so basically, I went product and I've been a mix match of three different salt prototypes we had because that volcanic message really resonated, the Black can really resonated with other other one of the other designs and the logo and the name from another. So we sort of ended up mixing, mixing and matching. That's, that's my sort of best piece of advice is get it down. Once you understand that problem you're solving frame it in a way that's motivating and meaningful. You know, like, again, using stickers as an example. Snickers could go to the market with we've got eight grams of protein and gives you a keeps you fuller for 22% longer and while this really scientific message, let it go at night really satisfies you know it's packed full of peanuts really satisfies because that resonates with the biggest audience and so Yeah, I guess that's, that's the key thing you're trying to learn. You're in testing WhatsApp messages, the best thing is one on one with people, because you can start to see their reaction. And, you know, you can see it, you know, in your understanding, because people sort of get a bit excited or it's more memorable I get I remember you were telling me about that. I love that or, you know, forcing decision. I mean, you know, that was a pretty old school way of putting stickers on cans. So you can do that, obviously, in a digital sense of even just running two different messages on Instagram ad, Facebook ad, whatever it may be, and testing them that way that, you know, it's you can get the quantitative data that way is the best is the qualitative where you're actually talking to people face to face. Yeah, awesome. Now, three, and four, which you're going to go through these are my two faves, because I think I talked about brand experience all the time. Yes, obviously, number one was understanding the problem number two was the solution. Number three is experience. Yeah. And so this is about selling more than just a widget in a box at a certain price. And so it's, it's about selling a multi sensorial experience. And, and what's the best channel for you to do that? You know, in any industry, you'll see, there's different retail forms, like there's obviously direct to consumer, but if you're going through a third party to sell for you, you know, there's, there's some retailers that just sell a few things really cheaply. And, you know, they put them on, they stack them high, and watch them fires, the old saying that, you know, they, you know, they're really the dealers of the market, and they're trying to offer the lowest price on something mainstream. Then the other end of the spectrum, you have the curators who are sort of retailers that really think about the total experience they're offering. And so, you know, what does the music sound like when I walk in, you know, what's the, what does it How does it how's it feel and touch it? What does it smell like? And so, the, again, back to the science, they've proven that it's more memorable, if you engage more senses. And so, I guess that's a key, a key part of your retail strategy where you're going to sell if you're selling online, it's hard, you know, obviously, it's, you really just type in the sound and the visuals, but even then, you know, you know, brand I love is Rafa and cycling gear, I don't know if got any cyclists. But what they did was they sell cycling gear, but amazing sort of technical gear, but they sell it through this really emotive video content. And so they became best in class at creating two three minute videos of people riding through these amazing scenes. And so it just makes you want to go and ride your bike and, and wear their gear and so that they've sort of tapped into the sensory experience in a, in a digital sense.

Suzanne Chadwick
And I think that like a lot of my listeners do operate online initially, like whether even though they might, whether they've got a product or a service based business, I think that video as a medium is a great way to connect on an emotional level, when you are just potentially transacting or attracting or brand building online. And so really maybe showing the experience that other customers have when they interact with you, or if you're running events or things like that, like showing all of that I think really gives people FOMO that they don't want to miss out on that, or you know, even just whatever the opportunity is of, of somebody that you've worked with, and now where they are, so that journey of you know, the positive outcome that they've had, just by interacting with you or being part of your community or buying from you. So I think that video is such a powerful medium when we are in more of a digital space as well if you're not if you don't have a physical product, yeah, definitely.

Troy McKinna
And it's even down to how you how you post it. And so a friend has done a new running brand called unsung unsanctioned. And you know, it's made from recycled bottles and so he's materials all you know, he's got a backstory to it that I bought one online and he sent it to me and it's kind of a, like a plastic bag like most clothing would come in, but it's a recycled bag. And it actually says I'm a dirt bag is because it's, it's basically a plastic bag you can put in with the worm farm. And so it continues to build that experience to his brand. And then you open up and it's running brand. So it has a little card with four little safety pins, because anyone that does running and does fun runs knows that you need for safety pins to get your number on. And so he's really thought about the experience of that unboxing moment, which is sort of so big for anything. So, you know, he's thought about that, you know, he that he's added to the experience, you know, he could have easily just sold that in a plastic bag and just put it in a DHL the courier bag and sent it out to you and nothing else. But by adding those nice little touches, it adds to the experience and so now here we are talking about it. Yeah, yeah. So there's ways to add to that. I mean, I think if you can find ways to get into a physical environment, it's always great. And I always used as the example of the wine. And yeah, I can go and buy it at a really cheap bottle shop and in the, you know, the give the clearance bin, you can go and buy a bottle, and it's 10 bucks or whatever. Or you can go to a vineyard, and you can make the winemaker. And you can walk through the via the vines, you can see the barrels that it's in, you can hear the whole experience, you can taste them all. And so the experience is a lot more memorable. And therefore, it's going to Yeah, in that view, when you're at the vineyard, they can sell that $10 bottle of wine tea for 50 bucks. And you've sort of you've sucked up into the whole experience. And you're happy to actually did that recently. Yeah. But I can I bet, I bet you can tell me what the brand was versus, you know, the last one you bought at a bottle shop and the clearance being all you know, at the sort of tie last Tuesday pizza shop, just give me the house read. No one's remembering that brand, because there's no experience to it. But you know, the experience of going to the vineyards a lot different. Now obviously, obviously, everyone can't have that. Yeah, the expensive, expensive their own vineyard and stuff. But yeah, how do you find those? If you're selling stuff online? How do you find those really nice little boutique shops that are, you know, that really curated what they're putting in, they're really hand picked. Because that's where it's, you know, you start to really build the brand.

Suzanne Chadwick
Yeah, and I think but I also just think it's, it's taking a look at what you can do that's above and beyond, or that's different to your competitors that, you know, even little things like handwritten cards or you know, custom made cookies, or gifts or things like that, that just surprise and delight, like it's just like wasn't expecting it. So amazing. People never do this. So I think even things like that can be definitely we're looking at how you can implement that or include that in your customer experience.

Troy McKinna
Yeah. And again, we've talked a lot about how do you make it easy for people? It's equally How do you make it easy, but memorable, and so create those little points of friction or tension on the way to go? Oh, that was I didn't expect that. That was great. And so that, that's all helps help us build the brand. Because at the end of day, what you're trying to do is back to that mental and physical availability is you're trying to make it memorable. So it's easy to to purchase when they're in that moment. And you're wanting to make it easy to shop for. Yeah, awesome. And then the last one is memories. And I feel like this I was I loved reading about this. I'm really keen for you to share this because it's probably maybe not something that I have, like thought about that much. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Again, memories. It's all around, as we just talked about, how do you make it easy for your brand to be thought of and that by moment, and again, back to that my psychology degree and sort of tapping into that. What I loved is that there's a site a psychologist called Carl Jung, and he started the the theory of archetypes. And so where that came from was, if you go through Greek mythology, or Roman or Aboriginal, or whatever sort of mythology, there's all a similar stories that keep coming through. And, and what the theory is, is, everyone's brain is hardwired to respond to a story. Everyone loves the underdog, the hero, the lover, you know, the the funny guy, there's so there's all these different characters, and Hollywood's built on it. What I loved is that the evolution of Carl Jung's work was used to think it was called The Story of 1000 faces. And it was used to write Star Wars as the as the first movie that was really deliberately written against these archetypes. And so there's really clear, yeah, there's the clear villain, there's the clear, you know, that they talk about the hero's journey from the orphan being Luke Skywalker to you know, to his eventual, you know, becoming the hero. But along the way, he falls in love. He has the he has the regular guy that you know that Han Solo is they're sort of no bullshit to it. He says they're the BMA, and so it's chewy and all of that. And then he's got the funny characters that he makes along the way. You know, he's got a really wise one around Yoda. And so there's all of these archetypes that gosh, I have never thought about that. Yeah, so fascinating. You read and read a read up on archetypes and then there's 12 brand archetypes, is it? Well, yeah, I mean, there's lots of different theories. The one I sort of subscribe to this, there's 12. And so those archetypes, the best brands are sort of built on those. You know, so an example of, you know, there's an explorer archetype that goes out and sort of finds, you know, finds a sort of eternal eternal bliss and that's really what brands like Jeep tap into. Yeah, deep is selling you four wheels in a car, but they're also the adventure that comes have that as well. Yeah. And so, you know, again, sort of brands have worked on like m&ms is the jester, and it's got the funny, you know, the two characters No, funny. Yeah. And so that, it taps into that. But, I mean, again, it's one of those experiences, I first came across it when I was at Mars about 13 or 14 years ago. And it's changed the way I look at Brands forever. And I guess the key part of that is, if you, if people are hardwired to these stories, and to respond to those stories, it's a way to just get into their to brain, again, to attack it tap into the science, people are exposed about 5000 messages in a day, and very, very few of those get in. And it's only the only ones that get in, and the ones that are telling a story that people are responding to, there's a part of the brain that's actually acts like a bouncer, it's like, the, like the door bits at the front of the night that the, the, you know, the clipboard, and the red robe, it's letting messages in. And so you need to know, what message is going to get through that red rope and the clipboard. So again, this is, you know, tapping into stories and, you know, back to the same as the solution pilots, how do you test that with people and what resonates in different ways, but building long term brands is about being really consistent. And by having that archetype, it allows you to know, what's a good decision to make, and what's a bad decision for the brand and what's on brand and what's not. You know, again, that sort of in my interviewing for the Booker T shirt is one of the founders of four pillars, and, you know, he talks about brand building is, is an act of improv, it's like, it's 24/7, it's fast, you got to respond. And so if you know what your story is, and your voice and your archetype, I guess that you know, the way you communicate, it's easy to, to react to that, and, you know, get messages out there quickly. So that's a part of it. And then I guess the other part is, how do you find a platform that you can build your brand on? I think one of the dangers for a lot of small businesses, it tries to do it, you're trying to everything, you've got Instagram, going with Twitter game, you've got Facebook, you've got, you know, there's what sort of tick tock whatever, yeah, whatever the latest and greatest is coming out, how do I respond to that? You worry about your Google search, you've even thought about, you know, dropping stuff in mailboxes or, you know, local newspapers or whatever. The best brands have found a platform for them that really works. And they've really act, they build expertise in that because what it takes to make a great Instagram post is very different to what it takes to make a great Super Bowl, TV ad. Not many people have got the money that's been on the Superbowl ad. But it's a totally different skill set. And so if there's the guys that make Super Bowl ads, have struggled with social media, the guys that the big companies haven't been able to embrace social media as well as a startup can because they're just not as nimble. And they're used to making an ad that takes 12 months to make versus I need something every single day. And so it's a different skill set. And so that'd be my point is find the platform that works for you. You know, again, we talk about an Instagram, it sort of works if you're selling fashion or something really visually inspiring. If you're selling finance, Instagrams not going to work for you. Like it's people don't want to see what a bank loan Home Loan looks like, or what the latest credit card or whatever it looks like. So you need to find other other platforms. And so again, that's a test and Loan Scenario. But, you know, I mentioned Rafa, before they, they found this was social media, but really video content, and they built your best in class expertise at Making great video ads around bought riding bikes. And so they've sort of built their brand that way.

Suzanne Chadwick
Yeah, awesome. No, I love that. And I think the experience and the memories I I'm like, trying to figure out now I'm like, what, what can I do more around that? So I talk about brand experience a lot. But the memories, I'm like, Okay, I need to dive a little bit deeper into that, which is really, really great. So Trey, thank you so much for your time today. And I just was seriously if you are a brand geek, like may you need to get this book. It is so good. But one of the one of the things that I feel I don't know if I read it when I picked the book up, but it was just like, there was a line in it that I was like, all in on which was every successful brand needs a fearless custodian. And I was like, yes. Because I talk about brave business all the time. And my audience knows that I am just like, Be bold, be different. Be unique. Be fearless in it, like you didn't come here to play small you decided to start this business. Like go for it. And so when you talk about being a fearless custodian, what what do you mean by that?

Troy McKinna
Yeah, it's Yeah, well when it comes down to is, if you're in a big business, you, the big business is built about efficiency, it's about around, this is what was done, this is how we're always going to do it. This is where we make money. And so if you want to do something brand, brand building, that's, again, what we've been talking about, it's going to be a bit unique, it's going to be a bit different, it's going to, it's going to interrupt people, no one wants to hear that, because it doesn't fit in the way we've historically done stuff. And so it takes a lot to get a big idea through a business in a big sense. Equally, if you're a small business, or even you're working by itself, you know, you can go and talk to everyone, get opinions on it, talk to your mom and dad, talk to your neighbors or your friends. And if you listen to all of those opinions, you'll basically end up with vanilla ice cream, or you know, it's just gonna be really boring, because you're trying to balance all of those, those needs. And I guess my point is, you know, you got to be fearless in that you got to go and find a problem that no one else has found. So you've got to go, you've got to be talking to the janitors about it, or you've got to be digging into the detail in places other people haven't. Yeah, to understand that. And that takes that takes bravery to get out there. You've got to, you've got to find ways to communicate that is just hasn't been done before. Because if you just the same, same as all the competitors, people just gloss over, you're just gonna get lost as wallpaper, or you're just going to have to spend a hell of a lot of money to keep cutting through. And so I think that's the big part of it. You know, quote in the book, I love. I'm a massive Nikkei fan. And so I quote in there a story he wrote to MTV around, he was getting nominated for some awards he did with the song he did with Kylie Minogue. And he basically told him MTV to get stuffed, because he was, he was not this mass market, Poppy. That's what not what he wanted with it for his brand. And so he walked away from it. And he's kept continues to build his brand in other ways. And you go to Nick Cave concert, and is the most hardcore group of fans you've ever seen, because he's built this amazing following. But he had to be brave to say, look, MTV is going to probably sell me more records. But it's not right for my brand long term. And it's the same conversation you see all the time. We have it now with Carmen, stormy, Coles and Woolies could sell a hell of a lot of pride for us, but the experience is going to be crap, it's not going to help us build the brand. We want to go and talk to the best cafes, we want to be at the music festivals, we want to be in places where we can build the brand and and take it for the long term. And so those there's tough decisions to make along the way, all the way along. And, and so you need to make you know, what feature you're going to put into the product. Which one are you not, you know, how are you going to make it stand out, even down to naming you know, most people end up with the sort of really boring names because it's really rational. And that sort of, it sort of works. But the brands that really cut through the ones that have got something a bit more disruptive, and yeah, yeah, I can't stress that enough that the time any brand I talked to, it was always one person or a couple of people that were making decisions that add a real vision of where they're taking it, and made a lot of hard decisions along the way to make that happen. And I had to push it, you know, it doesn't just happen, you can't, there's no process you can go through to go. Alright, I've done a bit of research now I've got that. And then I do this and going, and then it works. You got to push and you got to make tough decisions. And so yeah, that's, that's a bit of love about brand building is that, you know, it's there's real art and science to it. And there's a there's a there's a leadership to it as well, that is required. Awesome. I love it. It is the courage of conviction as a as a brand custodian that I think makes all the difference. And yeah, really sticking with that. So thank you so much. I really enjoyed this. Yeah. So it's awesome. Thank you.

Suzanne Chadwick
My pleasure. So where can my listeners find out more about you and get the book? The links in the show notes as well. But

Troy McKinna
yeah, so agents spring is a sort of business I do consulting through with clients and sell the book through that. So on Agents of spring.com Yeah, as you find it, a lot of people finding the book at airport bookstores, the sort of key ones out there every I can you can get it into audit into any bookstore in Australia. Yeah, or you can find it online at different sites as well. Yeah, and yeah, LinkedIn is probably the main place I do business. So if anyone wants to reach out andfind out a bit more, definitely connect with me there.

Suzanne Chadwick
Awesome. Well, Troy, we will have all your links in the shownotes as well but thank you so much for your time today. And congrats on the book. It was awesome. I love to

Troy McKinna
Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you.

Suzanne Chadwick
Have a you guy was a little bit longer than usual, but I Love this conversation and I really wanted to share it with you. And I think that there was so many great takeaways as well, is really to know your audience and understand what message is really going to resonate with them. Understanding your brand personality and check out archetypes. I'll put a link as well in the show notes. But yeah, and that memories, the memories and the experience, I really liked that. So I'm going to be thinking a little bit more around memories myself, too. So if you enjoyed this episode, if you got through the whole hour with me, well done you. And I'd love you to share it on Instagram or wherever you share what content you're listening to, and what podcasts you're listening to. I would really, really appreciate it. But thanks for hanging out, love it really enjoyed this one and make sure you go and check out brand hustle, you can find it in good bookshops or you can find it online as well. But if you enjoyed it, I'd love you to leave a review on iTunes because it does help me rank highly. And it helps others to find me and I would so appreciate it. But if you're not already, make sure that you're following me on all social platforms at Sue's Chadwick. Come hang in stories with me. But until next time, have an awesome week and make sure you keep playing big and branding bold.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai